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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#461

Post by efdee »

keiferski wrote: post #190
2024throwaway wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization I reject this statement wholeheartedly, and find it a pretty disgusting stance. The idea that the only reason not to kill someone (or otherwise act ethically) is due to religion is horrendous, especially given most religions historical track record on murdering others and other ethical violations.

I think you'd have a pretty difficult time constructing a history of morality that doesn't involve what we refer to as "religion." Certainly that doesn't mean that all religious beliefs are good or justifiable, but that isn't what I claimed, either. I just claimed they were the foundation.

Sure, but that is hard because religion is such a big part of our history. There aren't many large scale things from the past you can describe without talking about the influence of religion, because well, religion was there and it was pretty prominent.

However, that doesn't say much about whether religion was necessary for morality to substantiate. In fact, so many immoral things have been carried out in the name of religion, that you might as well wonder if we would have been much more morally advanced by now if it hadn't been for religion.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#462

Post by kazinator »

I don't agree with the logic of their argumentation. It reads a little bit like this:

"Lock-picking tools are based on metal stick technology. If you ban possession of lock-picking tools, you will hamper the entire economy of tools based on metal sticks: everything from screwdrivers to knives to scissors. Instead, you should ban all entrance doors that are not of bank vault pedigree."

(Which is not to say that I agree with criminalizing the activities of genuine security researchers, while giving a free pass to bad security. I'm only remarking on the form of argumentation in the article.)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#463

Post by mrguyorama »

keiferski wrote: post #232
whimsicalism wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great - and how is that different from the law again?

Because the law is only punishing people that break the rules, not teaching them what ethical behavior is in the first place. It’s fundamentally a reactive process. In other words, you want people that don’t steal cars because they feel bad about it. You don’t want them to not steal cars because they’re afraid of the law.

Why do you believe this isn't happening? Things like the golden rule and other normative ethical ideas are literally being taught in schools today, from kindergarten all the way up through required college classes.

The vast majority of people don't do bad things explicitly because they think it would be "bad". The vast majority of human behavior IS normative ethics right now! Next time you go to the grocery store, pay attention to what percentage of carts make it back to the cart corral vs are just left in parking lot, despite zero legal framework or forcing behavior to make it happen.

The human brain however has no difficulty squaring such "good and bad" concepts with doing bad things though. Everyone believes they are the hero of their own story, and the brain is willing to lie to itself to reinforce that belief.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#464

Post by anticorporate »

cltby wrote: post #343
bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

Criminality is congenital. Social interventions will not fix the kid. Neither for that matter will prison, but at least it will protect the rest of us from his increasingly violent depredations.

> Criminality is congenital.

This is a categorically disproven view. Thankfully, it's no longer widely held, but unfortunately not before it was used to justify millions of cruel acts from eugenics to genocide.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#465

Post by stevofolife »

pdonis wrote: post #397
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions. This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…

> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure ? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?

That's a wild statement to make about UN's unproductiveness in the history of its existence. I'd like some evidence please.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#466

Post by PontifexMinimus »

pdonis wrote: post #397
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions. This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…

> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure ? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?

> the UN [...] has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior

That's because the UN isn't an actor in its own right, it is merely a forum through which countries can co-operate if they want to.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#467

Post by [deleted] »

sokoloff wrote: post #115
sidewndr46 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is my point. All security measures are defective. I can always tie a chain to your vehicle and leave with it. Security measures deter criminals, they can never stop them. Only the government can do that. The government is not obliged to do that in the US. Thus, no one can stop criminals To metaphorically put it: no matter how good your 2FA is, I can always get around it if I can torture you or threaten your…

I think there is a meaningful and useful difference between "defective" and "not comprehensive".

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#468

Post by xipho »

immibis wrote: post #437
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about the endemic of illiteracy in the US right now? More likely than not that child can't even read above a 2nd grade level. We could have real rehabilitation centers focused on educating the kids, treating them like human beings with respect, and show them how to live life well. Or we could put them in kid-jail and be put at a higher risk for all sorts of violence and abuse just to punish them. As long…

Even better, we could focus on educating them properly the first time!

What teachers are saying is that socio-economics prevent any type of education from happening in many cases, i.e. there are many, many children who are going to struggle mightily unless the totality of their life systemically improves. Could teachers improve? Probably. Are teachers the underlying problem? I used to think so, but in dealing with our own school board/system it's very clear this is not the case.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#469

Post by kube-system »

fragmede wrote: post #373
kube-system wrote: post #211

Banning either is silly. Locks on things in the physical world can only be a deterrent because physical objects are subject to much easier brute force attacks than a problem in the digital world is. If you forced automakers to make their digital keys more secure, it wouldn't improve security, because you could still winch the whole car on to a rental trailer in 30 seconds. The Kia Boys notwithstanding, basically all…

Replay and CANbus attacks are easy enough that I don't think that's the case. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vIrqKRIUCiE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lkT9Fa1lA

Those are way harder than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgs3LCp1F3I

And in major metro areas of the US, crime rings targeting newer cars for export, have just started using tow trucks.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#470

Post by slily »

aidenn0 wrote: post #260
nox101 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest metro area on the planet, Tokyo, 34 million people, is also the one of the safest with the extremely low crime. Seoul, and Singapore are both around 10 million and are also safe with low crime.

It's also illegal to possess a gun in Tokyo, not just illegal to shoot somebody.

1. Go look up how relevant guns are to overall crime rates in the US.

2. Go look up what happened to the last prime minister of Japan.

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