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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#341

Post by aosmith »

bpoyner wrote: post #24
hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

The answer is simple, we need to ban android tablets. /s

Given what's going on in Canada maybe they should just ban OBD tools all together with the flipper. /s

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#342

Post by babypuncher »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #77
eli wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These cars are being sold with defective security measures. They don't work the way manufactures promise or customers expect. It shouldn't be any different than a car sold with headlights that are too dim

But that is my point. All security measures are defective. I can always tie a chain to your vehicle and leave with it. Security measures deter criminals, they can never stop them. Only the government can do that. The government is not obliged to do that in the US. Thus, no one can stop criminals To metaphorically put it: no matter how good your 2FA is, I can always get around it if I can torture you or threaten your…

So, because any lock I put on my front door can theoretically be broken, I shouldn't bother putting on a good one?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#343

Post by cltby »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

Criminality is congenital. Social interventions will not fix the kid. Neither for that matter will prison, but at least it will protect the rest of us from his increasingly violent depredations.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#344

Post by hostyle »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Perhaps. Or perhaps we are just seeing push back against the long tail of effective corporate lobbying, where every problem is caused by somebody else. See: Coca Colas campaigns to undermine plastic recycling efforts; or Big Oil hiding their own research about climate change since the 1970s; or Monsanto spending millions trying to legally bury the long term effects of the chemicals in their products; or Big Tobacco doing what big corps do.

The problem was never Flipper Zero. The problem was always insecure cars (and other devices). Shareholders don't care about security defects, they only care about the bottom line. Therefore spending a relatively small amount of money on propaganda denying all responsibility and foisting it upon other innocent parties is deemed a success, rather than spending a larger sum on fixing the real issues. Its not FUD, but its something similar.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#345

Post by seanmcdirmid »

cyanydeez wrote: post #295
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages. one gets constantly brought up while the other is celebrated.

> if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages.

Yes! Which makes our lack of action even more tragic.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#346

Post by samstave »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Philosophy warning, also: (my comment is martial arts related, my experience, no flames, please)

Your comment lit gave me goosebumps...

This is fundamentally, what is being taught in my experience in martial arts. I've been in Budo since a teen... I have trained with incredible people whose understanding of movement was without compare. (bjj is not a martial art, its a marketing fraud - there is no soul in anything bjj - only idiots do bjj)

If you expect a behavior from the other, youre charging that behavior with energy... expect is a gravity-pull. (gravity is thought) instead of pulling, direct - but as a gravity well, direction only as it applies to the flow of the other persons intent (their push) or expectations (their pull)... (deception is planting both the others' expectations (fear) & intentions (desire) for the resultant outcome (action).

Thats where nothingness comes from, like a black hole - you bend light (thought) around you - only choosing to join, direct (push (add energy)) when it reflects your desire (vision of outcome)...

This doesnt happen in some slow, flowy fashion, like a kata, mantra, or Sarah McLaughlin song...

This can happen at planck scale... directed by awareness (the owner of thought) (the owner of the owner of thought, is the YOU)... (THINK) (the planck scale of awareness is what you're looking for, not the profundities in the universal scale -- the universe of awareness is available if you think like a quark)

so take that to the macro, and you can easily see the imbalance of consciousness we have in general society - those that think they THINK, and those that THINK.

Those that think they think, are the ones disconnected and controlled easily by those that think.

(common masonic, esscenes, mayan, rosicruician concepts)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#347

Post by lainga »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

And now we come to the unfortunate fact that there is no equivalent in English for the distinction between Recht and Gesetz, or droit and loi, both being subsumed under the term law. The former is an immanent thing, a "shared search after justice". The latter is temporal, it is written down and itemised in Strafgesetzbuche and Codes Civiles, and is very appealing to HNers because we can read "common standard for some subset of behavior" and think "I can put this into a computer". But that Law is not The Law. And The Law is not even Society. It's something we yearn for or desire, and our confidence in society varies with our confidence that our neighbours are also yearning for it with us. The rule of law is a feeling, man.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#348

Post by AussieWog93 »

darkwater wrote: post #287
mbork_pl wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For good reasons I wouldn't be so sure... > just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. Exactly, a classical case of Chesterton's fence. > The laws we're passing are a consequence of belief systems too. Some of them are (and you're making a very good point here!), but some of them may be just pragmatic. > For people who see the world that way, these beliefs are unfalsifiable Again, very true. > just like the belief…

> As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned". Forewords: I was raised in a Catholic fa…

You could make a similar argument about capitalism. We _should_ have grown past it by now, but we haven't, and every time we try to invent a replacement system we end up making things worse.

You can see the ethical decay unfolding in real-time as societies turn replaced the old, rigorously tested system of religion with shiny new secular ethics.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#349

Post by cubefox »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

This is rarely talked about explicitly, but if the population of a country (or substantial subpopulation) has a high propensity for crime, for cultural or other reasons, the country needs harsher and more pro-active crime laws. In countries where this is not the case, like Japan, Switzerland or Finland, the crime laws can be much more liberal, because people can readily trust each other in a society with a low propensity for crime.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#350

Post by seanmcdirmid »

autoexec wrote: post #315
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countri…

The US isn't very uniform. Mississippi locks way more people up than Washington state. Both states are pretty ineffective in keeping crime down.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/2021.html?gad_source=1&g...

Washington is put at around Thailand, Mississippi locks more than twice as many people per capita up (and isn't very comparable to a country).

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