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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#331

Post by rootusrootus »

flanbiscuit wrote: post #304

My car has keyless entry but does not have the push button to start. You still need to put in the physical key and turn the ignition. My car has been broken into but without damage. They rummaged through stuff and took some random things but we keep nothing of value in the car. I'm not sure how they broke in but I've seen videos[1] online on how a tow service can get your car door open using an air-wedge. Maybe they…

There is very little distinction between your physical key and a pushbutton. When you turn the key, it's just pushing a button internally that does the same as a button you'd hit with your finger. Few cars these days have any kind of direct connection between the ignition key and the starter.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#332

Post by swozey »

14 wrote: post #319
swozey wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked…

It would be trivial to hard wire a kill switch to your fuel pump and have it hidden somewhere so no matter what thief’s can’t drive off with your car. Much cheaper and more secure as cars can be stolen from parking garages.

Put a kill switch in it they tow it. Put a Club in it they tow it and cut off the steering wheel. Put GPS on it they throw it in a faraday cage paintshop/train. Put a Dronemobile system in it the Police just won't investigate/track it down.

Really just have to not keep property outside anymore. I used to do the "It's not a big deal, i have full coverage" but had a car stolen and they (insurance) treat you like absolute trash when it happens.

So no more outside for my cars as much as I can

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#333

Post by seanmcdirmid »

whimsicalism wrote: post #265
rvnx wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only the case if people don't deny that the crimes exist, and Canada might suffer a bit from that lack of recognition. In France as well, if you mention that there is criminality, people will frown upon you. "No it's 100% safe country, it is a feeling of being unsafe".

I am someone you would label a ‘crime denier’ because I feel the problem is definitely smaller than in the past and it is generally overstated in the media. That is precisely why I think we should focus on organized crime and the driving clearing houses rather than individual street-level criminals.

I used to be like that, then I started seeing things happening myself. The first time you see Kia Boyz smashing windows and grabbing purses in a grocery store parking lot at noon on a Sunday is an eye opener (Do they want to get caught? this is pretty blatant, maybe they know we don't have many police these days). I always thought our crime problem was limited to porch piracy and street parked cars getting their windows bashed in at night (you know, typical drug addict crime), but nope, we have another problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#334

Post by aosmith »

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

See all that time the thief spends near the drivers side headlight? The headlights are on the can bus, if you can tap a couple wires in there the cars is yours.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#335

Post by RandomLensman »

gnarbarian wrote: post #306
RandomLensman wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why put all Western countries into the same bucket? Car theft is much more prevalent in the US than Germany, for example.

Which country is more diverse culturally? the answer to that feeds directly into op's argument.

Italy also has a high rate, so have, for example, New Zealand, Australia, Sweden. Not sure that is all that supportive (and how do you define cultural diversity?).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#336

Post by orwin »

rvnx wrote: post #257
whimsicalism wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA crime is still very low compared to pretty much the entire 20th century, it seems early to proclaim certain approaches as a failure. FWIW, catalytic converter theft was recently a big problem in the US and the classic approach of getting the FBI involved, identifying the high-level fencers and arresting, was incredibly effective and cat thefts have plummeted. I suspect disrupting the organized crime in Canada wou…

It's only the case if people don't deny that the crimes exist, and Canada might suffer a bit from that lack of recognition. In France as well, if you mention that there is criminality, people will frown upon you. "No it's 100% safe country, it is a feeling of being unsafe".

It really depends where you live in France. You have a big fence left in the west, a 'casse' near bordeaux, but you won't really find anything from violent crime (copper, stolen cars, phones and bikes at most, and most of the activity is genuine).

It's also a good way to know if organized crime is present in your area. If water distribution and/or trash collection is privatized to a 'local' company, you probably have some :)

The rest of the west, even Nantes and Rennes are really chill.

The issue in France is the resurgence of organized crime since 2004-2006. The tough on small crime policy jailed small magrebi caïds (basically local slumlords and drug dealers). Some local caïds gangs were strong enough to endure the storm and to emerge as stronger gangs, but organized crime from southern France (Grenoble, Marseille), and new gangs used that time to carve parts of Lyon and Paris. New crime families emerged around 2012, and around 2015 (I was living in Paris at that time) it could have turned really bad. Rumors of missile launchers, ak47 and other nice stuff in every shop. Things calmed down for no reason (I think the travellers families and magrebi gangs decided to share territory after the terror attacks and Sentinel), nothing really exploded, I left Paris.

To me, the only true violence left in 2023-2024 is around Marseille, near Monaco (Russian mafia left a big hole recently), in camargue (because of the new travellers families). Maybe it'll start again in Paris and Lyon, hopefully not.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#337

Post by skunkworker »

raizer88 wrote: post #47
markhahn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

All CANBUS packages that are useful to drive a car should be encrypted using a public/private key that is in the owner key. Decryption chips are cheap and fast.

From what I've been seeing with Toyota and their ECU Security Key, it hasn't been cracked yet but it's close to being cracked and extracted from a running car and the private key extracted (so things that look at CAN bus messages can work again, like comma.ai)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#338

Post by aosmith »

rasz wrote: post #285
hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Infinite Infinity car hack, came with two, left with three Q50s. They do crouch an awful lot near front wheel well. Reminds me of this Toyota hack where thieves plug into headlight canbus wiring thru wheel arch https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

That's exactly what's happening. This is not a wireless attack, it's a physical access problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#339

Post by gchamonlive »

wang_li wrote: post #199
gchamonlive wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference in putting together deadly artifacts and electronic devices you can fabricate using off-the-shelf chips and open protocols. Not saying you can't discuss regulating them, but to me they are in a different set of categories. Weapons are by default dangerous, their sole purpose being to cause physical harm, while a flipper zero can be used for instructional purposes and research. As much as I h…

>while a flipper zero can be used for instructional purposes and research. Only in the same way a weapon can be used for instructional purposes and research. Someone buying an off the shelf product and using it in the way it was intended isn't doing research except in the loosest sense of the word. E.g. "Does the radio transmission open this garage door? Does it open this garage door? Does it open this garage door?"…

Genuinely curious, outside of sports, can you name other functions for guns that don't involve killing things?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#340

Post by verisimi »

keiferski wrote: post #308
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expec…

You are describing anarchy.

No leader, or force required. People just acting according to their consciences.

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