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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#101

Post by jonhohle »

ceejayoz wrote: post #76
jonhohle wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, the people _stealing_ cars. I feel like this is bizarro world where what was previously accepted as adequate deterrence is now penalized because actual criminals have fewer and fewer incentives to follow established normal behaviors. “Maybe your face shouldn’t have been so punchable” is not a reasonable position to take, imho. Flipper, lock picks, bolt cutters, etc. are all reasonable tools. So is the e…

Kia and Hyundai saved like $20/car by skimping on a part that all the other major manufacturers include by default, leading to cars that were insecure by design. That's negligent. Punishing people for taking advantage of that vulnerability is certainly warranted, but it's also closing the barn door after the horse has already bolted.

What harm did Kia cause its customer? How are those locks adequate in say, South Korea, where there are 1:20,000 car thefts per capita yearly vs 1:350 in the US.

The locks are not the problem. Stealing cars is the problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#102

Post by RegnisGnaw »

whimsicalism wrote: post #59

Honestly, think a major problem with this is that Canada has not managed to resolve their organized crime issues. I don’t know why the US federal apparatus has been so much more effective at disrupting organized crime, but Canadian groups fencing a lot of these stolen cars.

The port in question is in Montreal which is in the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec is a political minefield with special status that most politicians don't want to deal with.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#103

Post by [deleted] »

irobeth wrote: post #52
hoofhearted wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people in the Infiniti groups were recommending this obd2 lock haha https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Saver-OBDII-OBD2-Lock/dp/B0BRF5D...

seems like a sophisticated theft ring would have access to the keys for the most common guards like this, reminds me of the TSA key debacle[1] [1]: https://github.com/Xyl2k/TSA-Travel-Sentry-master-keys

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#104

Post by nordsieck »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No; each of those scenarios involves external access controls that are standard for those industries. (Fences, guards, controlled access.) It's nothing like the Kia/Hyundai scenario, where such vulnerabilities stemmed from not doing the industry standard thing (immobilizers).

Isn't police the external control? It is just that governments have failed to provide enough of these controls... So maybe they should be punished collectively for it?

> Isn't police the external control? It is just that governments have failed to provide enough of these controls...

I can only speak about US law, but there has been repeated case law that the police do not have a duty to protect any person in particular (except possibly when people are in their custody which isn't really relevant here).

The function of the police isn't to stop criminals in the act - given their response times that's largely impossible anyhow (well, outside of traffic violations). They largely deter crime by catching criminals after the fact.

The examples given like military facilities have secure fences, 24 hour guards, etc. They are actually secure facilities. As opposed to someone's driveway.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#105

Post by whimsicalism »

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #97
whimsicalism wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I am not sure why Canada has had so much comparative trouble with organized crime

The port in question is in Montreal which is in the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec is a political minefield with special status that most politicians don't want to deal with.

This is a problem throughout Canada. BC also has a serious problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#106

Post by sokoloff »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

What would "enforcing any sort of religious or ethical norms" look like in a society that used those methods to effectively prevent the exploitation of vehicle owners by car thieves?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#107

Post by acdha »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No; each of those scenarios involves external access controls that are standard for those industries. (Fences, guards, controlled access.) It's nothing like the Kia/Hyundai scenario, where such vulnerabilities stemmed from not doing the industry standard thing (immobilizers).

Isn't police the external control? It is just that governments have failed to provide enough of these controls... So maybe they should be punished collectively for it?

Even a surveillance state like China has crime - it’s not possible to deploy a police officer to every block and most people would find that objectionable for other reasons. Very few threats can be solved by a single countermeasure because the enemies are also intelligent and motivated.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#108

Post by chatmasta »

markhahn wrote: post #39
h2odragon wrote: post #2

Or, enforce existing laws against theft ... "Ban insecure vehicles" is chasing the technology of locks; there's always another circumvention.

since there's "always another circumvention" we shouldn't even bother right? the "there are always bugs" refrain is horribly corrosive - it doesn't absolve the victim in any sense.

I think the point is not that we don't regulate locks, but that we don't ban lockpicks.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#109

Post by bdw5204 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #64
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

> Which the government is not obligated to do in the US. Just a talking point - and the US has one of the most extensive criminal justice apparatuses of any country. This article is about Canada - which has largely failed to control its organized crime+ports situation, unlike authorities in the US where most organized crime is organized from abroad and so difficult to disrupt but also less effective.

According to the US Supreme Court, the police have no duty to protect citizens[0], even if they obtain a court-issued protective order.

Cars are insecure on purpose because people accidentally lock their keys inside all the time so locksmiths need to be able to get into them. Likewise, locks on homes are insecure on purpose because people lock themselves out. The entire system of locks is based on the assumption that crime is rare and criminals will pick the easiest targets. If crime ceases to be rare, it falls apart very quickly.

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#110

Post by philwelch »

nonethewiser wrote: post #99
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

> The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US. I think it will take a multi-pronged approach that includes exactly this. Individuals must be held responsible for their actions. Car security also needs to be beefed up though. It's clearly not good enough.

Korean car brands like Hyundai and Kia are commonly criticized for being too easy to steal. Yet somehow the rate of car theft in South Korea, where these companies have a much higher market share, is a fraction of that in the United States.
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