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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#21

Post by hoofhearted »

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software.

Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above.

Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative ease.

Here is the ring cam video my neighbor posted:

https://video.nest.com/clip/8ef4d060588d4c7289f87cccb00cb55a...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#22

Post by abfan1127 »

kludgemaker wrote: post #11

Insecure people should be banned, not security tools like firearms.

I know this is tongue in cheek, but the proper phrase should be "insecure people should be held responsible for their insecure decisions, not security tools like Flipper or firearms."

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#23

Post by thfuran »

acdha wrote: post #16
h2odragon wrote: post #2

Or, enforce existing laws against theft ... "Ban insecure vehicles" is chasing the technology of locks; there's always another circumvention.

This is true in absolute terms but over simplified because it glosses over the differences in scale. We require cars to have seatbelts because even though people still die in crashes, it’s a statistically certainty that many fewer die when seatbelts are used. Setting minimum standards is a critical function of governments in maintaining healthy markets because it prevents cheating from being cost effective. If you ma…

>even if much of the cost is paid by the owners’ insurance

Insurers aren't usually charities. Those costs are still borne by the insured.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#24

Post by bpoyner »

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

The answer is simple, we need to ban android tablets. /s

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#25

Post by ceejayoz »

PeterisP wrote: post #14
ceejayoz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies that put out egregiously vulnerable vehicles should be held liable, though.

In a bunch of scenarios (mining, military, boats, planes) the vehicles explicitly don't have locks or ignition keys, you press a button and it starts up, you're good to go - should the manufacturer be liable if one gets stolen?

No; each of those scenarios involves external access controls that are standard for those industries. (Fences, guards, controlled access.) It's nothing like the Kia/Hyundai scenario, where such vulnerabilities stemmed from not doing the industry standard thing (immobilizers).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#26

Post by markhahn »

always first blame the flawed security.

sure, also blame attackers. never blame the attacker's tools.

this is a place where "victim-blaming" is exactly the right thing to do. we can be supportive, even empathetic, of victims, who may have attempted to be secure, but failed due to bad tools, third parties, etc.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#27

Post by shagie »

elif wrote: post #13
tromp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies should reflect unlock vulnerability of a car model in its premiums. That still leaves the problem that few people look at insurance premium when choosing what car to buy. What would help is a widely used certification system kept up-to-date by certification authorities in cooperation with insurance companies, similarly to what we have in place for a car model's fuel consumption.

Crashes are such an outsized component of insurance coverage compared to theft that this would not be a substantial motivation for manufacturers.

From this month a year ago - State Farm declares 105 Kia, Hyundai models ‘ineligible’ for new insurance in Louisiana - https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/kia-hyundai-models-in... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34642224 40 points | Feb 3, 2023 | 90 comments )

Which then - Dealers still sell Hyundais and Kias vulnerable to theft, but insurance is hard to get https://www.npr.org/2023/05/04/1173048646/hyundai-kia-car-th...

And in October - Wheels Of Steal: Some Kias, Hyundais Easy To Hotwire; Owners Sue Carmakers, Get $200 Million https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/kia-hyundai-ant...

The Challenges of Insuring a Kia or Hyundai in 2024 - https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/insurance-services/insuri...

---

I suspect that this has lead to Kia and Hyundai taking note of insurance rates and changing things.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#28

Post by ceejayoz »

rascul wrote: post #20
PeterisP wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a bunch of scenarios (mining, military, boats, planes) the vehicles explicitly don't have locks or ignition keys, you press a button and it starts up, you're good to go - should the manufacturer be liable if one gets stolen?

US military vehicles might have a cable that locks to the steering wheel. So if you try to drive it, you can't steer well. But if not setup properly, it can be steered just fine.

US military vehicles are protected by the "people with guns who will shoot you" industry standard.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#29

Post by markhahn »

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS.

So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#30

Post by wongarsu »

Why even ban them? In this context "insecure" seems to mean "vulnerable to theft". If somebody wants to buy something that's easy to steal, that's their issue.

If people inadvertently buy easy to steal vehicles that's an issue, and maybe there should be labeling, or or a testing initiative, or maybe it's just a temporary blip that will work itself out as independent parties pick up testing.

If it's known which vehicles are prone to theft the market should work everything else out. Insurance can price it in, and buyers can factor it in to their purchasing decisions.

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