Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero • Hacker News Board

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#51

Post by jonhohle » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 2:59 PM UTC

drdaeman wrote: post #19

tromp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies should reflect unlock vulnerability of a car model in its premiums. That still leaves the problem that few people look at insurance premium when choosing what car to buy. What would help is a widely used certification system kept up-to-date by certification authorities in cooperation with insurance companies, similarly to what we have in place for a car model's fuel consumption.

This penalizes unaware pre-existing car owners. Not only they got a crappy car, they now have to pay more for it - all because the vendor was sloppy. Doesn’t seem fair to me. The responsible party should be the automaker that built or installed the security system, not the person who was sold a lie.

Or, you know, the people _stealing_ cars. I feel like this is bizarro world where what was previously accepted as adequate deterrence is now penalized because actual criminals have fewer and fewer incentives to follow established normal behaviors. “Maybe your face shouldn’t have been so punchable” is not a reasonable position to take, imho.

Flipper, lock picks, bolt cutters, etc. are all reasonable tools. So is the expectation that using them to commit a crime should result in penalty for the individual committing a crime using those tools, not the target of the crime they are committing.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#52

Post by irobeth » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:00 PM UTC

hoofhearted wrote: post #38

markhahn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

The people in the Infiniti groups were recommending this obd2 lock haha https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Saver-OBDII-OBD2-Lock/dp/B0BRF5D...

seems like a sophisticated theft ring would have access to the keys for the most common guards like this, reminds me of the TSA key debacle[1]

[1]: https://github.com/Xyl2k/TSA-Travel-Sentry-master-keys

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#53

Post by eli » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:01 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

These cars are being sold with defective security measures. They don't work the way manufactures promise or customers expect.

It shouldn't be any different than a car sold with headlights that are too dim

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#54

Post by whimsicalism » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #31

lupusreal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we could try enforcing those laws with no mercy given to the "wayward teens who don't know any better" (they do.)

We tried that sort of approach; it's pretty widely considered a mistake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_...

I agree that 7 years ago it was widely considered a mistake, but I think we are currently reaching by a new consensus based on the opinions I have been seeing more commonly in the last 3 years.

We are in a conservative moment in the US right now.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#55

Post by nightowl_games » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

Personally I think FOBs for cars are simply not worth it. The key with the remote for starting, locking and unlocking is ideal. Ford's with the on door key pad is pretty good too imo. Probably hackable tho. Down with fobs!

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#56

Post by ngetchell » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

What do you mean they are not obligated?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#57

Post by AYBABTME » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:03 PM UTC

markhahn wrote: post #45

lupusreal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we could try enforcing those laws with no mercy given to the "wayward teens who don't know any better" (they do.)

This logic depends on law-breakers being fully rational agents. Yes, there are some, at least some of the time, but very few.

If they're not rational, they can go to jail? Isn't that the idea of jails: take people out of the system if they refuse to act by the rules of the system at other people's detriment.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#58

Post by phoe-krk » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:03 PM UTC

blooalien wrote: post #46

bpoyner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is simple, we need to ban android tablets. /s

"Kill all humans!" ~ Bender B. Rodriguez Headline the next day: "Crime rate on Earth now at an all-time low of zero percent!"

How do you calculate this value of zero percent? Divide all the crime cases of the previous day by the number of humans? And who wrote the headline?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#59

Post by whimsicalism » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:04 PM UTC

Honestly, think a major problem with this is that Canada has not managed to resolve their organized crime issues.

I don’t know why the US federal apparatus has been so much more effective at disrupting organized crime, but Canadian groups fencing a lot of these stolen cars.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#60

Post by Ekaros » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:04 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #25

PeterisP wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a bunch of scenarios (mining, military, boats, planes) the vehicles explicitly don't have locks or ignition keys, you press a button and it starts up, you're good to go - should the manufacturer be liable if one gets stolen?

No; each of those scenarios involves external access controls that are standard for those industries. (Fences, guards, controlled access.) It's nothing like the Kia/Hyundai scenario, where such vulnerabilities stemmed from not doing the industry standard thing (immobilizers).

Isn't police the external control? It is just that governments have failed to provide enough of these controls... So maybe they should be punished collectively for it?