Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.
A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper.
The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
291–300 of 302 posts
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#292Whenever I see comments about how slow public projects are these days, I think about this documentary: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-under... It's a PBS special about the history of the Boston subway (which was one of the first in the nation). To give you an idea of what construction safety was like back then, they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and…
part of the issue in 2024 is that the ground is a lot fuller than it used to be, so it takes more time. In some cases, like in New York, step one is figuring out where any of that stuff even is , because for privately owned infrastructure the maps are not public or even shared with government, and in some cases the infrastructure is so old that the maps are not accurate, if they are even available. we now build proje…
- digging down a small amount (in contrast to London where they dug DEEP under everything else)
- rerouting ALL of the existing pipes etc (you can find photos of the rerouted gas lines)
- Putting in the subway
- Putting everything back
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China. Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale. I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the…
>Frankly im not even sure the labor cost is even solvable. Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages An entitled and creepy af attitude, if there ever was one. "Foreign" "wages" are not going to stay low forever. Already gone up and going up in some countries. Think (and act) smarter, dude. Only the fittest of the fittest shall survive. - Bob Marley (Could you be loved) https://youtu.be/CRkfqH1r714?si=8F…
Regardless, we’re already seeing the effects as manufacturing moves away from China and towards India.
Now, what happens to those increased wages when the demand for workers is gone?
That’s right. They collapse.
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and keep working That's still done today, evidently! A few months back, there was a small gas leak in my neighborhood. When they knocked on my door to say they'd be working in the area, the repair crew leader was kind enough to indulge my questions. I asked them if my gas would be shut off. They said no, they do the work while the gas i…
> I asked them if my gas would be shut off. They said no, they do the work while the gas is still on! My understanding is that most "last mile" gas lines are pretty low pressure and low flow. On purpose, so that if theirs a leak they aren't releasing massive amounts of gas into the atmosphere in a hurry, so the concentration doesn't raise to dangerous levels. Then when they are working on the lines and in those pits…
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, this is a general term for descendants of Native American peoples. Their degree of sovereignty unfortunately varies; some tribes are "federally recognized" and enjoy state-like recognition of their autonomy by the federal (central) government, while others have to bargain with the states surrounding their territories. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) And a FAQ: https://…
Thanks for the insight! I had no idea some enjoyed so much autonomy, or that something other than the democratically elected government arranged for courts to exist in some regions. If I ever visit the USA, this sounds like they'll be some of the culturally most interesting places to include in the trip. Odd that I had never heard of this before. (That native Americans exist, sure, and the word reservation I've heard…
> I had no idea some enjoyed so much autonomy, or that something other than the democratically elected government arranged for courts to exist in some regions.
I just want to clarify that while "autonomy" may be the case on paper, the reality on the ground often seems more bleak -- at least to me :(
From what I can see as an outsider living near and traveling through some communities in the West, it seems like they don't really "enjoy autonomy" as much as "learned to hang on, by a thread, to what they have left".
It's a really sad sight to behold, ancient cultures reduced to communities smaller and poorer than your average middle-class California suburb. Depending on the particular tribe and reservation, a lot of times they are more "trailers and mobile homes scattered over acrid plateaus" than "thriving communities". The cultural ties they have to the past -- in food, in dance, in song, in story, in way of life -- seem to be more acts of remembrance, occasionally celebratory but often somber or perhaps even mournful :( By and large the dominant theme today is poverty. Overwhelming poverty, at 300% that of the White poverty rate.
I don't mean that they are joyless or hopeless, but that it's a very far cry from what real sovereignty and community would look like if they still controlled their ancestral extents and resources, everything from land to water to fish & game and real diplomatic autonomy, not as a "domestic dependent nation" beholden to the US Congress. Today they exist not in equal partnership with the United States, but at its mercy.
Whatever US laws say on paper, in reality the tribes are often treated as second-class citizens living in the invisible margins of American life, and only in ways that Congress allows. And to the extent they are protected by US law at all, those laws can be changed on a whim by a new generation/administration of US policymakers, as they have many, many times in the past through the United States' frequent betrayals. Yes, the tribes have some specialized courts and law enforcement today, but that's more Congress throwing them a bone. It's not true sovereignty, but something more like house arrest, where they're "allowed" to manage some of their internal affairs, but only as long as and only in ways that Congress sees fit.
They don't often have their own economies beyond casinos and tourism, they can't manage their own foreign relations with other nations outside the USA, they often don't own their own land, etc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_Unit...). TLDR the United States forcibly relocated the tribes to some of the worst geographies (after killing many), and then told them what they are and aren't allowed to do on the land that we allow them to live on. Many are freely murdered and never investigated (https://www.nativehope.org/missing-and-murdered-indigenous-w...).
> If I ever visit the USA, this sounds like they'll be some of the culturally most interesting places to include in the trip.
If you ever visit (welcome! sorry for the grimness above), just please approach them with the respect you'd show any unfamiliar culture. Some tribes have facilities (like museums or visitors' centers) for receiving tourists. Others may be less welcoming, especially, well, if you're a White European.
If you want to understand their cultures, don't just see them from the US side, with our laws and statistics and treaties glossing over the centuries of violence and erasures.
In books, movies, documentaries, and even video games, many tribes have tried to tell their own stories from their own points of view. If you want to visit any, it might be worth doing a bit of reading beforehand and then maybe reaching out to tribespeople to see if they would be willing to actually meet you...?
If you just drive near or through these communities, you'll only see them at their surface levels, because they're usually not a tourist destination in the way that, say, the welcome centers of a US state would be.
Sorry if any of the above sounded preachy. That wasn't my intent. I just didn't want you to blindly stumble into a situation thinking things are great now, with tribal members welcoming you with open arms and eager to show you their culture.
Anyway, I do hope you come visit someday and see for yourself, then come back and tell us where we were wrong!
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
Had fusion power recived a fraction of the funds that went to blockchain stuff over the past decade, we would be much closer indeed.
Had fusion power received a fraction of the funds that went to military wars over the past decade, we would be much closer indeed. My point is that whataboutism, is probably a bad take here.
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.
As a consumer, of course you buy what's cheaper and that's not a moral failing. Policy makers on the other hand should consider externalities, and optimize for making them less bad, or at least not make them worse.
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, since the quality of each individual's experience can vary wildly in a market which accepts such inequalities as necessary for the health of the overall system.
If you examined your thoughts more closely, you'd realize they're ridiculous. Should we pay everyone the same in a given country? Should a food deliverer make the same as a surgeon? No? Then this creates an economic hierarchy already. This economic hierarchy exists for countries as well.
It's not ridiculous to examine this. Your example compares the relative value of different professions, which is not relevant, because the context of this discussion is the comparison of domestic and foreign labor for the same professions.
Pragmatically speaking, there will always be an economic gradient under a capitalist system, as this gradient is necessary for the system to work. But we should still be mindful of the impact of our decisions at every level of the system.
Parent poster was suggesting that a cheap foreign labor market is required in order to create a better national energy grid. Economic policies which rely upon this sort of thinking inevitably establish structural classism. There is no moral excuse for structural classism, which is quite a different discussion than your comparison of food delivery and surgery as two services with a different inherent value.
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, since the quality of each individual's experience can vary wildly in a market which accepts such inequalities as necessary for the health of the overall system.
I think you’re missing the price competitive constraint. I said it would need low foreign wages to be price competitive with China. Under what non-neoliberal mindset is this false? I can only think of one and I dont think its what you have in mind: reduce labor rights and eliminate the minimum wage.
I'm not comparing solar industry labor with cobalt mining, but I think cobalt mining is a good modern example of a more extreme version of this. Absolutely deplorable working conditions in order to enable a higher quality life for more "civilized" countries. The kind of classist thinking which has existed for such a long period of time that it's often taken for granted as some sort of necessary evil of society.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11668015/Devastatin...
Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Frankly im not even sure the labor cost is even solvable. Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages An entitled and creepy af attitude, if there ever was one. "Foreign" "wages" are not going to stay low forever. Already gone up and going up in some countries. Think (and act) smarter, dude. Only the fittest of the fittest shall survive. - Bob Marley (Could you be loved) https://youtu.be/CRkfqH1r714?si=8F…
How is that “creepy”? Regardless, we’re already seeing the effects as manufacturing moves away from China and towards India. Now, what happens to those increased wages when the demand for workers is gone? That’s right. They collapse.
I don't know. I just felt it was like that, so said it. Can't really explain it. Gut feel.
>Now, what happens to those increased wages when the demand for workers is gone?
>That’s right. They collapse.
Yeah. It happens. All the time. Deal with it.
Cycles, dude, cycles.
Business cycles. Ups and downs.
Power cycles (between various power groups). Ditto.
You know, like our old pals, Xerxes, Darius, Cambyses, Alexander, Attila, Caesar, Ashoka, Chandragupta Maurya, Genghis Khan, Akbar, Timur, Napoleon, Hitler, Cortes, and many more (in no particular order).
Horse-drawn carts. Cars. ICE cars. EVs. Age of sail. Steam ships. Abacus. PCs. Mobiles.
You get the drift. It's called progress. Not so sure. But it is what it is.