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The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

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Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#221

Post by sergiomattei »

adrianN wrote: post #81
EasyMark wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it took my local utility about 5 years just to run about 30 miles of HV wire from me seeing "announcment of public commentary" -> studies -> "final notice of commentary on route" -> building starts. The building itself took about 6 months, as it ran along a road I travel a lot. That's a long time for 30 miles of HV towers.

Oh, I thought you wanted to tell an anecdote about a fast project. Five years sound very quick to me.

Five years is light speed in terms of public works! I felt the same way.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#222

Post by robertlagrant »

soulofmischief wrote: post #207
nonethewiser wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China. Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale. I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the…

> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, since the quality of each individual's experience can vary wildly in a market which accepts such inequalities as necessary for the health of the overall system.

It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#223

Post by XorNot »

bboygravity wrote: post #198
nonethewiser wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China. Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale. I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the…

Is that really cheaper though taking into account that the cheap ones (and perhaps the expensive ones too) have a lifetime of about 50 years and cannot be recycled at all? That doesn't sound sustainable at all to me.

Recycling is not a magic word for "cheap". Landfilling a bunch of panels every 50 years is fine: they're "just" sintered sand.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#225

Post by visarga »

robertlagrant wrote: post #222
soulofmischief wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, since the quality of each individual's experience can vary wildly in a market which accepts such inequalities as necessary for the health of the overall system.

It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.

A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#226

Post by XorNot »

tfourb wrote: post #134
mytailorisrich wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When comparing solar to nuclear we also need to include storage and dimensioning to get an equivalent guaranteed 24/7 output. This might still make solar cheaper but difference will be smaller than headline numbers (and you might retort that for nuclear we then need to include dismantling costs as well).

In that case you'd also need to model how the cost changes if you combine solar with wind and other renewables. Wind and solar are to some extend complementary (there is statistically more wind when there is little sun and vice versa). You'd also need to account for distributing solar and wind across large geographic areas (i.e. the U.S. is so wide that there are a few hours difference between the sun setting on the…

Thats still building 2x the power generation (and you've got storage in there too). Those wind turbines aren't free. They have different maintenance costs too.

You don't get to say "oh well it'll be 1GW of solar if we also build 1GW of wind" because that's not the project.

This is all an excuse to talk around Solar's god awful capacity factors which take the shine off those $/MW headlines.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#227

Post by 10u152 »

sergiomattei wrote: post #221
adrianN wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I thought you wanted to tell an anecdote about a fast project. Five years sound very quick to me.

Five years is light speed in terms of public works! I felt the same way.

A freeway bypass/overpass is being built on a road I travel a lot.

Funding and consultation started in 2004. Expected completion date 2029. Quarter of a century to build 8km of road.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#228

Post by SoftwareMaven »

belorn wrote: post #204
lambda wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's an over-simplification. But this is an area of the country where capacity factors are in the 25-30% range: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=39832 (the Ute Mountain Reservation is in the very Southwestern corner of Colorado, a little bit of New Mexico, and a little bit of Utah: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ute+Mountain+Reservation,+... ) So even if you discount the capacity by a 25% capac…

Building nuclear in a desert feel a bit like building hydropower dams in a desert. It does not really make sense and whatever the capacity factor is, being in a desert should increase it. The only real drawback to building solar power in a desert is sand storms. That means the capacity factor is less relevant but life span and repair costs is a different matter. It is a bit similar to ocean wind farms. The capacity n…

There is an ecological cost to miles and miles of solar panels. Desert ecosystems are extremely fragile, and these kinds of projects can be very damaging. It’s not just wasteland. (Said as a desert Southwest denizen and lover who gets the impression that many people think, “oh, there’s no trees? It’s unimportant land.”)

I want the Utes to have success in this, but I don’t want the general attitude to be “trash the desert because there is sun there”.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#229

Post by quickthrower2 »

op00to wrote: post #85
lambda wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And an AP1000 reactor costs about $6.8 billion to build, and substantially higher operating costs. 68% of the power for 14% of the price seems like a pretty good deal to me, there's a reason people are investing more in solar than nuclear, it's just more cost effective. edit: Oh, and that $6.8 billion looks optimistic. This project with two AP1000s looks like it costs $30 billion. https://www.ans.org/news/article-394…

What about at night? Or when it’s cloudy?

In my experience of home solar cloudy isn’t necessarily a problem. It doesn’t reduce power much.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#230

Post by dralley »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #215
op00to wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pumped storage requires creating new lakes, destroying existing ecosystems.

And creating new ones. Why are the existing ones more valuable?

The entire point of pumped hydro is that you're constantly draining and replacing the water. The reservoir is not an ecosystem.
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