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The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

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Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#191

Post by sciencesama »

thelastgallon wrote: post #53

I wonder if the tribes have enough autonomy to build transmission lines quickly. Just the Navajo Nation can build enough solar/wind and transmission lines within their reservation and probably connect to the grids in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona. US is incredibly slow in building transmission lines, takes decades. And, if they have enough autonomy to import Chinese panels (50% cheaper), a network of these n…

May be start the manufacturing facility here and start panel manufacturing here itself !!

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#192

Post by adrianmonk »

alexpotato wrote: post #151

Whenever I see comments about how slow public projects are these days, I think about this documentary: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-under... It's a PBS special about the history of the Boston subway (which was one of the first in the nation). To give you an idea of what construction safety was like back then, they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and…

> they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and keep working

That's still done today, evidently! A few months back, there was a small gas leak in my neighborhood. When they knocked on my door to say they'd be working in the area, the repair crew leader was kind enough to indulge my questions.

I asked them if my gas would be shut off. They said no, they do the work while the gas is still on!

And they must have been cutting into the gas line because they replaced a section that ran under the street. They used a backhoe to dig huge holes on both sides of the street and then fed a flexible pipe through.

Here's a video about something kind of similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMs__ZnOfA

I'm sure today's techniques are different and much safer, so I don't think it negates your point that they used to do risky stuff.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#193

Post by nonethewiser »

sciencesama wrote: post #191
thelastgallon wrote: post #53

I wonder if the tribes have enough autonomy to build transmission lines quickly. Just the Navajo Nation can build enough solar/wind and transmission lines within their reservation and probably connect to the grids in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona. US is incredibly slow in building transmission lines, takes decades. And, if they have enough autonomy to import Chinese panels (50% cheaper), a network of these n…

May be start the manufacturing facility here and start panel manufacturing here itself !!

Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China.

Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale.

I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the first step. Frankly im not even sure the labor cost is even solvable. Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#194

Post by AtlasBarfed »

zdragnar wrote: post #190
alexpotato wrote: post #151

Whenever I see comments about how slow public projects are these days, I think about this documentary: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-under... It's a PBS special about the history of the Boston subway (which was one of the first in the nation). To give you an idea of what construction safety was like back then, they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and…

Safety usually isn't the problem. It's the public notice periods, feedback collection, final notices, environmental impact studies, lawsuits over whether the environmental impact studies were sufficient, possible need to get the government to invoke eminent domain, studies over which potential version of a project needs the least disruption, and so forth. Near where I live is a bridge over a river that needs replacin…

Meanwhile collapsed Minneapolis I-35W bridge (remember that? Gusset plates, etc?) got replaced in something like 7 months, they picked a colorado company and started construction very quickly. Of course a half dozen local construction companies filed suit but the bridge was built really fast.

Right next door to that bridge are three other projects: a cliff/dirt collapse/erosion/retaining project that kept the river parkway closed for like 4 years, and two bridges being reconditioned that have been closed for 3. Those went through the "normal" channels.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#195

Post by bobthepanda »

EasyMark wrote: post #67
thelastgallon wrote: post #53

I wonder if the tribes have enough autonomy to build transmission lines quickly. Just the Navajo Nation can build enough solar/wind and transmission lines within their reservation and probably connect to the grids in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona. US is incredibly slow in building transmission lines, takes decades. And, if they have enough autonomy to import Chinese panels (50% cheaper), a network of these n…

I know it took my local utility about 5 years just to run about 30 miles of HV wire from me seeing "announcment of public commentary" -> studies -> "final notice of commentary on route" -> building starts. The building itself took about 6 months, as it ran along a road I travel a lot. That's a long time for 30 miles of HV towers.

I'm ignorant of how this works, but aren't tribal nations exempt from at least state and local regs?

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#196

Post by bobthepanda »

nonethewiser wrote: post #193
sciencesama wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May be start the manufacturing facility here and start panel manufacturing here itself !!

Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China. Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale. I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the…

most of the onshoring is not dictated by cost but the realization that something that looks like COVID lockdowns of Chinese factories and ports makes just-in-time untenable.

Most likely, you will see a lot of made in Mexico/Caribbean/Canada

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#197

Post by bobthepanda »

alexpotato wrote: post #151

Whenever I see comments about how slow public projects are these days, I think about this documentary: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-under... It's a PBS special about the history of the Boston subway (which was one of the first in the nation). To give you an idea of what construction safety was like back then, they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and…

part of the issue in 2024 is that the ground is a lot fuller than it used to be, so it takes more time. In some cases, like in New York, step one is figuring out where any of that stuff even is, because for privately owned infrastructure the maps are not public or even shared with government, and in some cases the infrastructure is so old that the maps are not accurate, if they are even available.

we now build projects to relocate utilities (so that you don't have to shut down a subway line to replace an adjacent water pipe) but that stuff is costly and everyone is prepared to sue the other in case of a mess-up. but there is a lot of the physical version of tech debt; New York is still replacing wood and lead piping, for example.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#198

Post by bboygravity »

nonethewiser wrote: post #193
sciencesama wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May be start the manufacturing facility here and start panel manufacturing here itself !!

Panels are a commodity at this point. I hate to say it but mineral extraction, processing and panel manufacturing will be way more expensive than importing from China. Prerequisites for manufacturing panels here at an even remotely competitive price includes reducing labor costs and extracting/refining minerals at scale. I absolutely agree we should onshore solar production but simply onshoring manufacturing isnt the…

Is that really cheaper though taking into account that the cheap ones (and perhaps the expensive ones too) have a lifetime of about 50 years and cannot be recycled at all?

That doesn't sound sustainable at all to me.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#199

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Areading314 wrote: post #124
lambda wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And an AP1000 reactor costs about $6.8 billion to build, and substantially higher operating costs. 68% of the power for 14% of the price seems like a pretty good deal to me, there's a reason people are investing more in solar than nuclear, it's just more cost effective. edit: Oh, and that $6.8 billion looks optimistic. This project with two AP1000s looks like it costs $30 billion. https://www.ans.org/news/article-394…

This doesnt take into account capacity factors. A "800MW" solar plant would be expected to actually product 10-25% of that after day/night and seasons are taken into account. Nuclear plants are more of a 90+% capacity factor.

The LCOE cost advantage of alternative energy vs ... everything ... at this point is well known and calculated in Lazard's yearly LCOE study.

Nuke advocates do themselves no favors playing shell games and weasel words with the economics. Nuclear is expensive. The nuclear industry needs to figure out how to make it a lot cheaper. And no, it's not just the NIMBY regulation.

The legacy nuke industry has a ton of deeply embedded lobbying and relationships with the regulatory agencies and congress, including ancillary groups that do fuel rod reprocessing and waste transport, cushy high-cost satellite industries.

Nuclear is stuck in a rut. Economically viable nuclear needs a clean-slate redesign and all the old players need to be thrown out. Computer designs, modern software and sensors, materials, etc. Research LFTR to the wazoo.

One of the big pushes IMO should be the US Navy, which should start using nuclear power for all its fleet ships not just subs/carriers.

Re: The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US

#200

Post by deaddodo »

bobthepanda wrote: post #195
EasyMark wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it took my local utility about 5 years just to run about 30 miles of HV wire from me seeing "announcment of public commentary" -> studies -> "final notice of commentary on route" -> building starts. The building itself took about 6 months, as it ran along a road I travel a lot. That's a long time for 30 miles of HV towers.

I'm ignorant of how this works, but aren't tribal nations exempt from at least state and local regs?

Sovereign (as not all are considered such) tribal lands are dictated solely by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (and Congress, obviously, as the institution granting that authority). In practice, unless something goes heavily against Federal interests (illicit drug production/trade, for instance), it is regulated by the nation ("tribe") alone.
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