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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#281

Post by dang »

szasamasa wrote: post #266
dang wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm a moderator here.) The title you submitted ("iPissed: Apple is after web capabilities to protect close to 100B App Store Tax") broke that guideline badly. It's standard moderation practice to revert titles when submitters do this. If you felt the original title was misleading, then it would have been correct to change it, but definitely not by editorializing and making it more baity. On HN, being the submitter o…

ok I understand you I had the false impression I own the title you have experience with others and if clickbait is a problem, original title is totally ok for me others wrote it is outrageous I think I would not have even recognized the duplicate flag or that the title changed myself :) it gave me the false impression something bad happened to me :) you can totally remove these comments of mine complaining, I iterate…

Thanks for the kind replies! Don't worry, the only thing that matters is using HN in the intended spirit going forward. If you have questions in the future, feel free to send them our way at hn@ycombinator.com.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#282

Post by anon373839 »

appplication wrote: post #210
crazygringo wrote: post #171

This subject was already discussed here 2 days ago (819 points, 778 comments) [1] and the top comment highlighted that Apple gives its reasoning in a way that is at least worth considering. From Apple [2]: ---- The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with th…

> Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious web apps could read data from other web apps and recapture their permissions to gain access to a user’s camera, microphone or location without a user’s consent. Browsers also could install web apps on the system without a user’s awareness and consent. I’m not sure I fully understand the ire at Apple here. If any of this is true, killing PWAs sounds like the…

> I’m not sure I fully understand the ire at Apple here. If any of this is true, killing PWAs sounds like the right move.

Well, that’s just it: it’s a lie.

Full-screen web apps are using the same web APIs that websites in browser tabs use. The exact same hypothetical security risks exist for ordinary browser tabs. Full-screen web apps pose zero additional security risks.

All Apple has done is to harm the usability of web apps. Not one user will be made safer by this move.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#283

Post by scarface_74 »

ramses0 wrote: post #261
scarface_74 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You think the casino style games are going to move to PWAs without direct access to users wallets via in app purchases? If that’s the case, why aren’t all of the same games moving to the web for Android?

Honestly... the Apple/Safari "pay with Apple Pay" flow is super excellent. I'm literally excited when a web storefront supports "pay with Apple wallet" because it's secure, account-free, and defaults all the shipping addresses, etc. it's extremely low-friction, IMHO. ...now, putting on my conspiracy hat... how difficult is it for n00b-company/developer to get a business license to accept credit card payments (and iss…

Apple Pay is not available in every country, there are more ways to pay through in app purchases than credit cards and parents aren’t going to put credit cards on kid’s phones.

Besides, many people don’t want to pay every random website and they trust Apple.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#284

Post by scarface_74 »

themacguffinman wrote: post #279
scarface_74 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

Because Apple ruins the "cross platform" part by crippling it on their own popular platforms. It's a lot less appealing to develop cross platform code when you still have to make a native app for one of the biggest platforms out there: iOS. I also wouldn't bet on games being exclusively native now that cloud gaming is available and WebGPU is in heavy development. Right now cloud gaming is locked out of the iOS App St…

But most companies still need a website for desktop use. So why don’t they just tell Android users to use the web instead of a dedicated app?

Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”?

Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks.

Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps.

BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#285

Post by scarface_74 »

mmcnl wrote: post #270
JustExAWS wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the mass adoption of PWAs on mobile - including Android where Chrome is suppose to be so much better - like the “year of Linux on the desktop”? (and the HN gods don’t like me now for some unknown reason)

No, I don't think so, for the end user it doesn't matter a lot (though increased competition will be of benefit for the end user obviously). But what matters is that Apple can't be a gatekeeper for PWAs and so they can't charge their 30% App Store tax. So it matters a lot for developers. That's why it's a threat to the App Store model.

You still didn’t answer the question - if it means so much for developers, why not use PWAs on Android today?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#286

Post by a13o »

scarface_74 wrote: post #238
a13o wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social casino space on mobile is interesting, because everyone basically accepts that their apps are a commodity. Therefore the winners are the ones with the best operations. SciPlay in particular comes to mind because they have built out their own payment processing on platforms that support it. They explicitly want to avoid headwinds from Walled Gardens making decrees. They would already have momentum if/when m…

And instead of suing Google and Apple, if the PWA experience was so good on Android, then why didn’t Epic just make FortNite a PWA?

Probably because Unreal Engine doesn't support HTML5 games?

They did the next best thing, which is to sideload the app that UE can build.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#287

Post by drdaeman »

szasamasa wrote: post #260
drdaeman wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Web” as an OS is overbloated, with decades of legacy junk. It was never meant to run applications, and yet it does. The strong indicator for this is that there are only, what, 3 (two sharing common ancestor, so more like 2.5?) non-dead rendering engines, and it’s practically impossible to implement a new one? (Yes, a toy engine is possible, but anything practical is out of reach.) My point is, you can’t introduce co…

yes, there are sooo many OS out there linux and windows, then 3x linux derivatives (android, mac, ios) so we have the linux kernel and windows, we still exist (1% open source) browsers have the open source chromium kernel plus safari and firefox and some small others it seems to me browser choice is good enough I dont mind if google and microsoft engineers all work on chromium together...

I'm sorry, but your comment has a lot of simple facts stated plain wrong, and then it entirely misses the point (which could be my fault for not making it clear what it was about).

macOS and iOS are based on Darwin, which is a BSD-derivative, IIRC there's nothing from Linux in there at all (although IIRC macOS used to ship some GNU programs). Chromium is not the engine, Blink and WebKit are. Android has almost no relation to GNU - sure, it has Linux kernel, but, it's entirely different system on top of it... but all of this is not important.

It doesn't matter if the browser choice is good enough or not. That's not the point at all - today's browsers are going to become irrelevant, just like '90s and 00's browsers don't matter anymore (Trident? Presto? CERN and NSCA stuff?). The fact there are only few engines remaining is the indicator, not the problem.

The core issue that the entry barrier is extremely high, and the foundations are still almost as bad as they were when Web2.0 was conceived. There's a giant baggage of legacy stuff that has pretty large impedance mismatch. The colossuses are growing so fast no one can realistically build a competing one anymore, yet all of them have feet of clay, as they were never meant/designed to grow into what they became through their twisted evolution.

By the way, I can totally understand if someone would disagree with this. Evolution takes weird paths, but somehow ends up achieving impressive results, and if we would stop caring about how things are working underneath (think of a recurrent laryngeal nerve analogy) and only focus on what they can do, maybe it's fine.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#288

Post by themacguffinman »

scarface_74 wrote: post #284
themacguffinman wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Apple ruins the "cross platform" part by crippling it on their own popular platforms. It's a lot less appealing to develop cross platform code when you still have to make a native app for one of the biggest platforms out there: iOS. I also wouldn't bet on games being exclusively native now that cloud gaming is available and WebGPU is in heavy development. Right now cloud gaming is locked out of the iOS App St…

But most companies still need a website for desktop use. So why don’t they just tell Android users to use the web instead of a dedicated app? Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way…

Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets.

> Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”?

No it's often not, Android is typically the smaller platform in terms of revenue. There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive.

> BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide.

That's a good step forward, although Microsoft's head of gaming claims it's still not open enough to support xCloud, which is probably due to Apple imposing the classic revenue cut on all cloud gaming purchases.

Edit: I forgot to address these two quotes, I'll just quickly note that the two statements literally contradict each other:

> Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks.

> Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#289

Post by scarface_74 »

a13o wrote: post #286
scarface_74 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And instead of suing Google and Apple, if the PWA experience was so good on Android, then why didn’t Epic just make FortNite a PWA?

Probably because Unreal Engine doesn't support HTML5 games? They did the next best thing, which is to sideload the app that UE can build.

So no major app developer has been motivated enough to create a PWA to avoid the “Google tax” even though the experience is suppose to be so much better on Android?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#290

Post by scarface_74 »

themacguffinman wrote: post #288
scarface_74 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most companies still need a website for desktop use. So why don’t they just tell Android users to use the web instead of a dedicated app? Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way…

Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. > Is it not wor…

> Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets.

And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”?

> There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive.

Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from…

As far as cloud gaming, Apple is including cloud gaming in the “reader app” clause of the rule where apps like Netflix don’t have to offer in app subscriptions

https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/02/16/microsofts-ceo-do...

And my last two statements aren’t contradictory at all. Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic.

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