It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#201

Post by wiseowise » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:40 PM UTC

rubymamis wrote: post #161

szasamasa wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you should not generalize cherry picking examples does not mean the web MUST be slow, maybe the web apps were programmed badly... I can write even worse native apps than these web apps and it will not prove anything did you ever try compile c++ code to webassembly and check out the performance "degradation"? it still can be true that for this special task, a native app is the better choice and people would buy it fro…

> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed tea…

> Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion...

VSCode, Figma, Discord, two can play this game.

> Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance?

What kind of future super computer do I need to run NATIVE Xcode with sane performance? Why NATIVE email client drops frames on scrolling thousand long email list while I can scroll Amazon web page forever without perceived frame drops? Why opening NATIVE settings redesign on Mac OS stutters harder on my MBP 2018 than settings my shitty HTC from 2012? Why do I need to go through billions of steps to get OSS application working when it’s not notarized by fruity dictator?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#202

Post by tempodox » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:40 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #97

Kinda funny but when the rubber hit the road they did delete the word “Progressive” from “Profressive Web Apps”. Talk about a complete failure in branding, they should have done that years ago but the PWA pushers had the congenital fault almost all marketers have which is the inability to see themselves the way others see them.

“Progressive” just sounds too good. Who wouldn't want to be associated with progress? Today we have the label “AI” for stuff that has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever, but who wouldn't want to be associated with intelligence?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#203

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:41 PM UTC

rubymamis wrote: post #161

szasamasa wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you should not generalize cherry picking examples does not mean the web MUST be slow, maybe the web apps were programmed badly... I can write even worse native apps than these web apps and it will not prove anything did you ever try compile c++ code to webassembly and check out the performance "degradation"? it still can be true that for this special task, a native app is the better choice and people would buy it fro…

> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed tea…

> Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance?

Bad software performs badly.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#204

Post by phartenfeller » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:45 PM UTC

szasamasa wrote: post #139

phartenfeller wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that native apps can offer better experiences and often do because they get more development effort. I disagree that most people hate PWAs because they are just websites. I think many mix bad websites with "PWA is a bad technology". All the cookie banners, ads and prompts to install the native app are the reason the experience is worse. What could a native app for Wikipedia, Google or a basic news pages (with…

but web apps can usually offer the same experiences if programmed well it may be a current situation that some web apps seem inferior, but it is not a necessity plenty of web developers cannot even use js as a programming language or companies do not heavily invest in web apps since 1. they already invested in a native app 2. apple crippled the web via webkit and now tries to flat out crash web capabilities on iPhone…

I fully agree, and that is precisely why the EU is doing a great job regulating this, and they shouldn't stop and punish Apple more for their response actions.

Apple should allow other browser engines, and these should be able to leverage the OS capabilities comparable OSes are giving to their browsers.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#205

Post by rubymamis » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:46 PM UTC

wiseowise wrote: post #201

rubymamis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed tea…

> Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... VSCode, Figma, Discord, two can play this game. > Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What kind of future super computer do I need to run NATIVE Xcode with sane performance? Why NATIVE email client drops frames on scrolling thousand long email list while I can scroll Amazon web page forever without perceived frame drops?…

Yes, you can write native code badly, but it's not as easy to shoot your app with degrading performance with native tech compared to web tech.

EDIT: While VS Code is a fine app mostly. I can't really say it's performant at all when Sublime Text runs next to it.

Figma - never tried. Discord - only on web, and the same thing with VS Code.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#206

Post by a13o » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #173

TheFuzzball wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can tell that the App Store wasn't planned that early because if it was the earlier Apple apps would have been using the APIs that needed to be implemented and documented for the first App Store, and they didn't. Apple today is very different from the Apple that launched the iPhone and the original App Store - they started off thinking all apps could be PWAs, but the Web Platform wasn't mature enough at th…

Really? You think the casino style games are going to move to PWAs without direct access to users wallets via in app purchases? If that’s the case, why aren’t all of the same games moving to the web for Android?

The social casino space on mobile is interesting, because everyone basically accepts that their apps are a commodity. Therefore the winners are the ones with the best operations.

SciPlay in particular comes to mind because they have built out their own payment processing on platforms that support it. They explicitly want to avoid headwinds from Walled Gardens making decrees. They would already have momentum if/when mobile platforms allow third-party transactions.

That's not to say they would also abandon the distribution benefits the mobile storefronts offer over PWAs. But payment processing wouldn't be the sole thing that keeps them. This is why Apple fights so vigorously to defend their wall. The benefit isn't innate for players or for developers. Once developers reach a certain level of maturity, the wall benefits Apple at everyone else's expense.

With the recent cracks in the wall caused by Epic, I would expect social casino space to be an early adopter in any alternative payment flows that emerge. But honestly I would expect games in general to react quickly, since Apple is walking in Facebook's footsteps and actively detoxing their games revenue habit in favor of advertising revenue. There's more incentive than ever to build a direct relationship with your customers instead of having to proxy them through Apple.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#207

Post by szasamasa » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #183

szasamasa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have to do something that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps. Also, most companies have native apps already... Web apps are the future competitor, not present.

Yes because Apple never breaks native apps… Do you remember when they completely removed 32 bit app support from iOS. People on HN want to make every excuse in the world for why PWAs on Android aren’t more popular and how it’s Apple’s fault.

it is not breaking native apps, it is pushing you to update your tech... currently you cannot update some code for your website to work offline on iOS

like there is a competition... few companies have great websites/web apps and if a native app worked, people will not abandon it for a web version of course... the competition you claim web apps lost (even on android) has not yet even started :)

in a very huge article-like top level comment I wrote about how this "install" web apps is misleading and comparing native apps directly to web technology

web technology is not all about apps... I just checked one good example: hover.com has no native app, never had... they made the website work on all screen sizes.

actually I never cared if they have web manifest implemented so that I can switch them to standalone (web app, vow)... now I see I could do this but I will not because this particular domain I choose to use NOT standalone (not as an app) but from the browser... it is a well written website that could be used standalone but since I rarely use it and from linux desktop, I do not care

actually, web manifest is a draft not a web standard yet: https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/

all it does (what some people love to call "install") is initiating standalone usage and you can get a home screen button

each and every web capability practically has its own standard... caching and offline websites are possible via service workers, orthogonal to standalone and "web app"

what I want to say it is not that simple that web app vs. native... hover does not pay Apple or Google because they were capable of responsive design... if you use a service like it every day or standalone is crucial or your choice of using it, use it that way, it is still run in your chosen browser sandbox whether you hide browser UI or not

it is about choice and it is about the future... what I can tell you knowing web capabilities well, 99% of the time it is possible to deliver the same experiences with a browser as native apps deliver

the web is an alternative, even for standalone experiences (apps)... it may be like linux and stay niche or become like chromium

time will tell

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#208

Post by wiseowise » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 3:58 PM UTC

rubymamis wrote: post #199

wiseowise wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s irrelevant, they’re not using native widgets.

It's not because it means a Qt app can match a native application in performance (actually, my note-taking app is way faster than Apple's Notes). In terms of styling, yes, the styling of Qt Quick Controls is not quite good as to resemble native widgets, and I had to do a lot of work to get my own styles right. At least on macOS, I believe my app looks and behave like a native app (with 2 exceptions that I aim to solv…

> Qt app can match a native application in performance

Correct. That doesn’t make it a native application, still.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#209

Post by rubymamis » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 4:07 PM UTC

wiseowise wrote: post #208

rubymamis wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not because it means a Qt app can match a native application in performance (actually, my note-taking app is way faster than Apple's Notes). In terms of styling, yes, the styling of Qt Quick Controls is not quite good as to resemble native widgets, and I had to do a lot of work to get my own styles right. At least on macOS, I believe my app looks and behave like a native app (with 2 exceptions that I aim to solv…

> Qt app can match a native application in performance Correct. That doesn’t make it a native application, still.

In the Qt world, we say native-like.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#210

Post by appplication » Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 4:09 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #171

This subject was already discussed here 2 days ago (819 points, 778 comments) [1] and the top comment highlighted that Apple gives its reasoning in a way that is at least worth considering. From Apple [2]: ---- The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with th…

> Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious web apps could read data from other web apps and recapture their permissions to gain access to a user’s camera, microphone or location without a user’s consent. Browsers also could install web apps on the system without a user’s awareness and consent.

I’m not sure I fully understand the ire at Apple here. If any of this is true, killing PWAs sounds like the right move.

Everyone who is pissed off at Apple is just fine with this? The fact that this can all happen without user consent completely throws away any arguments of “I’m a responsible user who should be able to choose what apps run in my phone, not some big company”. Because if you really believe that, then you would also not want apps like this to exist under the new EU rules.

I’ll be honest I just don’t get it.