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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#261

Post by ramses0 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #173
TheFuzzball wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can tell that the App Store wasn't planned that early because if it was the earlier Apple apps would have been using the APIs that needed to be implemented and documented for the first App Store, and they didn't. Apple today is very different from the Apple that launched the iPhone and the original App Store - they started off thinking all apps could be PWAs, but the Web Platform wasn't mature enough at th…

Really? You think the casino style games are going to move to PWAs without direct access to users wallets via in app purchases? If that’s the case, why aren’t all of the same games moving to the web for Android?

Honestly... the Apple/Safari "pay with Apple Pay" flow is super excellent. I'm literally excited when a web storefront supports "pay with Apple wallet" because it's secure, account-free, and defaults all the shipping addresses, etc. it's extremely low-friction, IMHO.

...now, putting on my conspiracy hat... how difficult is it for n00b-company/developer to get a business license to accept credit card payments (and issue refunds/chargebacks) for SlotMaster9000, versus "I'm and app-store developer, Apple fronts the income-washing and chargeback hassles as a first-line defense.

Literally: what's the difference in setting up a Shopify thingy full of digital-content-tokens and running Apple Pay on it?

Remember that WebGL video-poker thing a few months ago? Wire that up to Apple Pay and what's the difference?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#262

Post by szasamasa »

sccxy wrote: post #143
duiker101 wrote: post #16

Did anyone actually ever put web apps on their home screen?

I have 11 Web Apps in iOS Home Screen, 9 Web Apps (MS Edge) in macOS & Windows.

and I guess we all use a lot of responsive websites that are minimally web apps in funtionality, even if they did not offer manifest files for standalone mode

I just found out that hover which is a responsive website without mobile apps can be added to home screen ("install") on mobile...

well I tried it and it is on my home screen as a web app! vow!

I mean a web app is not a website you download or install, no need to ask how many are on the home screen...

the real question is web capabilities, we need good web programmers, companies with web strategies to get a lot of powerful websites

it is actually not the most important thing whether you add it to the homescreen or what...

the most important thing is to support the web capabilities with security in mind

it is not a fight against native, it is a choice and competition, freedom, free choices are normally good

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#263

Post by szasamasa »

lozenge wrote: post #91
szasamasa wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well if you trusted Apple with Safari you can do so why is it such a problem foryou if I trust Google with Chrome on an iPhone or Microsoft or Mozilla? I find this extremely misleading: "the exception is already bad for iPhone security"... not if you stay with Safari I travel regularly on rails with a private train company instead of the train company that actually built those rails... Apple has nothing to do with iP…

> the exception is already bad for iPhone security It objectively is. Safari is a weak spot in the iPhone security. https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42890/ https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42917/ https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42916/ Three vulnerabilities that involve visiting a webpage, and all are due to the W^X exception I mentioned. Something that users do very often, unlike with installing…

I see that you had high level replies and you are probably more knowledgable than I am in security.

However, you cannot shut down browsers because they are the weak spot.

Even if you are right in every argument you wrote in security I do not find it relevant.

You have the choice to use Safari on iOS and your security will not be worse than before.

I just believe that freedom and choice is trumping this kind of parenting security.

Again, everybody can remove browsers or not use them or use Safari or shut down js.

We can grow and evolve, browsers could blacklists or whitelist sites, you can use these lists or not...

I really dont understand the fearmongering.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#264

Post by szasamasa »

anon373839 wrote: post #160
szasamasa wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like this thread to be a somewhat deeper discussion about DMA and web apps. I would welcome true tech or legal arguments. But please if you are an apple-bot or rather less familiar with web tech, read more before commenting. I don't really want spam arguments like you claim I must be protected from myself using web apps via Gecko or Chromium. I am fully capable to make my decision and you can make yours: just…

> what is this ”new integration architecture” that would make web apps more secure I think this "new integration architecture" is a very flimsy excuse. To host PWAs, a browser needs the ability to (1) ask iOS for permission to place an icon on the Home Screen, (2) launch certain "tabs" (Home Screen apps) in a separate window. Safari can already do this; they just need let others do the same. Since the PWA is hosted b…

I do not know. I think that it is a weekend job and then a month testing.

If Apple does not retreat they will have to explain this. Especially since every other OS (macOS too) can do this.

However, at the end of this day I think they just have a chess game to push it 1,2,3 years in the future... 1 year in EU, 2-3 years elsewhere.

Meanwhile they broke web apps on iOS for a year.

I just hope that some bigger company sues them for this after it is clear that it was not needed.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#265

Post by szasamasa »

jsnell wrote: post #124
szasamasa wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why did it get so many comments? you seem to be protecting people from discussing what they want to discuss in addition, I wrote 2 first comments asking people to focus on a deeper conversation and my focus was both in my forcefully changed title and in my first article-like comment that what is actually happening is attacking web capabilities the first 2 comments were mine, an article and an ask towards the com…

A submission getting comments isn't automatically a sign that it should be on the frontpage. Anything controversial or outrageous is likely to get a lot of comments any time it makes the frontpage. The really insidious part is that unlike the really interesting submissions which are one offs, these topics are being fed by a news cycle and a content treadmill, with a steady stream of new articles mostly rehashing the…

well I understand you and you are right

it was not my article btw, and it was the same practically as others

this higher level thing was a flop too, the discussion went on under other comments :)

my take is I have to right my first blog post somewhere if I have some time to analyze the issue

and then come back here and post it

the problem is I do not have time for this and Gemini hallucinates like hell so I cannot really work with a 66 page legal pdf efficiently :)

and I am not a gecko or chromium engineer or a lawyer so I actually lack the specific knowledge

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#266

Post by szasamasa »

dang wrote: post #247
szasamasa wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found guidelines not rules: "Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." For me, "kill web apps" is misleading since we have to wait and see how the EU reacts. The original title is more of a clickbait. I am not a power user of hacker news. I found a title to fill in and did my best. Had I seen there a link to the guidelines or a text like: please use original…

(I'm a moderator here.) The title you submitted ("iPissed: Apple is after web capabilities to protect close to 100B App Store Tax") broke that guideline badly. It's standard moderation practice to revert titles when submitters do this. If you felt the original title was misleading, then it would have been correct to change it, but definitely not by editorializing and making it more baity. On HN, being the submitter o…

ok

I understand you

I had the false impression I own the title

you have experience with others and if clickbait is a problem, original title is totally ok for me

others wrote it is outrageous I think I would not have even recognized the duplicate flag or that the title changed myself :) it gave me the false impression something bad happened to me :)

you can totally remove these comments of mine complaining, I iterated on this now and everything ok!

yeah this you are terrible comment may have been too much, I will not be personal in the future!

have a good night or morning wherever you are :)

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#267

Post by szasamasa »

szasamasa wrote: post #211
neximo64 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround. I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use. If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they…

your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "…

ok!

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#268

Post by szasamasa »

dang wrote: post #245
szasamasa wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "…

> your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology You can't attack another user like that on this site, and we ban accounts that do, so please don't do it again. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

ok

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#269

Post by szasamasa »

firtoz wrote: post #168
szasamasa wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found guidelines not rules: "Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." For me, "kill web apps" is misleading since we have to wait and see how the EU reacts. The original title is more of a clickbait. I am not a power user of hacker news. I found a title to fill in and did my best. Had I seen there a link to the guidelines or a text like: please use original…

It's alright, you know now for your next submission. Regarding the dupe removal: I am slightly inclined towards your side, because it's not really a dupe, but, still I understand where the mods are coming from, especially if a good amount of discussion already happened around the same topic recently.

yeah it was re-duped so... it was halfway duplicated actually

next submission will be just the article title :) I found my peace with it (and read the guidelines)

I think I was a little bit also paranoid... but others reacted actually first and I thought I was some kind of a victim which was not true at all

so peace! :)

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#270

Post by mmcnl »

JustExAWS wrote: post #252
mmcnl wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea, but as I said it's about the next decade, not today.

Is the mass adoption of PWAs on mobile - including Android where Chrome is suppose to be so much better - like the “year of Linux on the desktop”? (and the HN gods don’t like me now for some unknown reason)

No, I don't think so, for the end user it doesn't matter a lot (though increased competition will be of benefit for the end user obviously). But what matters is that Apple can't be a gatekeeper for PWAs and so they can't charge their 30% App Store tax. So it matters a lot for developers. That's why it's a threat to the App Store model.
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