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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#191

Post by szasamasa »

scarface_74 wrote: post #172
anon373839 wrote: post #14

> It’s telling that this is the feature that Apple refused to share. And it makes sense: the idea that users could install safe and secure apps that Apple can’t tax, block or control is terrifying to them. I think that’s what this decision is all about. When Safari was the only browser engine on iOS, PWAs didn’t threaten the App Store because Safari delivers a degraded experience with them. With alternative browser e…

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

if apple did not care, they would not have crippled web capabilities in the last 10+ years and they would just let chromium/gecko based browsers make use of web standards

web apps are the future that may take as much as 90%+ of the 100B app store revenue

web apps will succeed once good programmers and companies make strategic decisions to build good web apps

crippling web apps on one important major platform like iOS stalls these strategic decisions since it is not easy to tell your programmers that now you learn js and web technologies if you still need those native apps

in addition, most companies have already published native apps, web apps will start to gain success after apple is forced to let them work with feature parity on iOS etc. AND 3-5-10 years pass since rather new companies choose web apps

get back to your observation of "popularity" after apple is forced from governments and competition authorities to support web apps on iOS (just like on macOS or every other OS does) plus 5 years!

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#192

Post by wiseowise »

rubymamis wrote: post #164
wiseowise wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm developing a Notion alternative in Qt C++ ...which is not native to the platform, so you're in a way proving my point. Unless I become professional writer, or develop an OCD about typing latency - standard browser and Electron apps (looking at you VSCode and Logseq) are good enough for my use cases. And don't misunderstand me, there's absolutely a place for native applications - when performance matters. Millio…

> ...which is not native to the platform "The Qt Rendering Hardware Interface (RHI) translates 3D graphics call from Qt applications to the available graphics APIs on the target platform."[1] [1] https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/topics-graphics.html

That’s irrelevant, they’re not using native widgets.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#193

Post by wiseowise »

scarface_74 wrote: post #177
wiseowise wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm developing a Notion alternative in Qt C++ ...which is not native to the platform, so you're in a way proving my point. Unless I become professional writer, or develop an OCD about typing latency - standard browser and Electron apps (looking at you VSCode and Logseq) are good enough for my use cases. And don't misunderstand me, there's absolutely a place for native applications - when performance matters. Millio…

So that’s the argument for PWAs? They suck just like Electron apps but they are good enough?

Press “parent” button twice to hear reasons for web applications.

Your “suck” doesn’t mean anything to me. There are benefits and drawbacks to every approach. Benefits and potential of web applications and browser far outweigh current and future drawbacks for me.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#194

Post by Ezhik »

troupo wrote: post #140
agust wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electron-based apps are not PWAs. PWAs do not need to be wrapped in a browser engine of their own, they use the installed browser engine. They are not inherently bloated or resource-intensive in any way. There are not many good example of great PWAs precisely because Apple has been crippling web capabilities on iOS by banning other engines and degrading the experience in Safari for a decade.

Just as I said: you add a P in front of web apps, suddenly as if by magic all the issues disappear. > PWAs do not need to be wrapped in a browser engine of their own, they use the installed browser engine. Ah yes, they don't need a browser engine, they just need a browser engine > They are not inherently bloated or resource-intensive in any way. So, let me get it straight. A web app running inside a web browser engin…

I personally prefer native apps, but there are some nice things I can (could) do with web apps that I can't with native ones, like adding multiple copies of a PWA to use with different accounts or creating personal web apps without needing to go through the app store approval process (all it took was a web page with some meta tags).

The second one especially stings - Apple might be throwing out a perfectly fine feature that I used a lot. Not everything needs to be on the app store - what exactly can I do now to put an icon on the home screen for a user base of 5 people? Something like this would never pass app review.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#195

Post by rubymamis »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #189
rubymamis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed tea…

>There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. While the web stack may be somewhat slower in the extreme, I think the reason why big bloated apps like Teams are slow is not down to technology at all. I think the causality works the other way around. Big corporations with large teams that are systemically incapable of paying attention to detail (including performance) choose web technologies because web tech a…

That's all very well known. The fact remains that it's just too easy to write slow and resource hog apps (even when you really don't intend to) using web technologies. There are just countless examples. I think everyone can tell the difference when they run an Electron app or a native app.

The only exception of late seems to be Notion Calendar (used to be Cron). It's an Electron app but runs pretty smoothly.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#196

Post by michaelt »

incrudible wrote: post #119
azangru wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?

People often forget this, but before the App Store, the idea was that you would use HTML apps, added to the homescreen. It was in the very first iPhone. It was not called PWA then, and technically a PWA need not be a homescreen app either. Whether Steve hated the App Store I do not know, but it was not in his original vision for the iPhone.

Maybe.

Or maybe they knew things like the ipaq had third-party software, and they didn't have time to add such capabilities in time for launch, so they only encouraged PWAs as an interim measure.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#197

Post by jacooper »

szasamasa wrote: post #49
duiker101 wrote: post #16

Did anyone actually ever put web apps on their home screen?

web apps are the future, not the present Apple was holding them back and just pulled the plug. Only if web programmers can count on future proof support will they produce web apps. In addition, most companies have already created native apps so again, web apps are the future, it is not an argument that there are few on iOS and yes, outlook or X are good examples

I was using X's PWA for years, but I recently gave up on it because it's just very janky and the opposite of smooth, it also drained the battery much faster than the native app. This may be an issue with android, but even with 12GB of ram the PWA still crashes often, something I never get when using the app.

Luckily I didn't have to compromise on my AdBlock thanks to vanced patches, which patch the x app to remove ads.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#198

Post by alsetmusic »

chii wrote: post #111
anon373839 wrote: post #14

> It’s telling that this is the feature that Apple refused to share. And it makes sense: the idea that users could install safe and secure apps that Apple can’t tax, block or control is terrifying to them. I think that’s what this decision is all about. When Safari was the only browser engine on iOS, PWAs didn’t threaten the App Store because Safari delivers a degraded experience with them. With alternative browser e…

> I think Apple did not want to risk letting that happen. they've already shown a shadow of their true colors when they banned flash under the guise of security (which is also a problem, but for which apple conveniently uses as an excuse). This is their true intention. The app store and the easy revenue from those sales are just not something they'll willingly give up.

Steve Jobs's "Thoughts on Flash," was written when I was a tech at an Apple Store. I remember pulling up crash logs on a customer's computer and showing her over and over that Flash was related to Safari crashing. Flash was garbage on the Mac. Blocking (or not implementing) it on the phone wasn't a grand conspiracy. It was smart business.

I'm not denying that they're predatory with the App Store. I'm saying that not supporting Flash can be explained quite easily without ulterior motives.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#199

Post by rubymamis »

wiseowise wrote: post #192
rubymamis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...which is not native to the platform "The Qt Rendering Hardware Interface (RHI) translates 3D graphics call from Qt applications to the available graphics APIs on the target platform."[1] [1] https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/topics-graphics.html

That’s irrelevant, they’re not using native widgets.

It's not because it means a Qt app can match a native application in performance (actually, my note-taking app is way faster than Apple's Notes). In terms of styling, yes, the styling of Qt Quick Controls is not quite good as to resemble native widgets, and I had to do a lot of work to get my own styles right. At least on macOS, I believe my app looks and behave like a native app (with 2 exceptions that I aim to solve soon).

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#200

Post by tempodox »

jart wrote: post #125
ghusto wrote: post #117

Tip: To be taken more seriously, don't use such childish language. I was reading the first part and nearly switched off without checking the comments here. I'm glad I did, because I see now how serious (and maybe _illegal?_) this is. Don't turn your audience away with emotional wording, for something that can easily have impact if you communicate it purely for what it is.

It's not childish it's manipulative and it's the sort of rhetoric that only manipulates people at least a standard deviation to the left of the bell curve here. But even by that standard, gosh this piece lays it down so thick that it honestly made me cringe.

What I find especially conspicuous is that they quote Apple's reasoning for doing that and then do nothing to counter it. If they find Apple's decision so wrong, they should say why.
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