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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#61

Post by p_l »

troupo wrote: post #50
fifafu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example: a while ago I worked on a bluetooth le based companion app for industrial sensors. The client would absolutely have built this as a web app if iOS had offered web bluetooth. With alternative engines this would be possible and Apple does not want these kind of applications outside the App Store. With the right engine basically any kind of app could be created as a webapp / pwa So in the US it doesn’t matt…

> One example: a while ago I worked on a bluetooth le based companion app for industrial sensors. The client would absolutely have built this as a web app if iOS had offered web bluetooth. With alternative engines Do you know that the only "alternative egnine" that implements hardware APIs is Chrome? Because it's a Chrome-only non-standard that Firefox opposes, too ?

As someone who long supportedy Firefox over Chrome...

I wish Firefox had WebBluetooth or another API that could do that.

But then Mozilla instead of helping set codec standards that everyone could use preferredyto show you could run codec in JS and opened a way for EME

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#62

Post by szasamasa »

lozenge wrote: post #51
neximo64 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is quite often where people make the greatest mistake. It's all about distribution and customer usage. Most people hate and don't use PWAs. What stands in the way are Native iPhone apps are better. It also goes for android too. That's why PWAs fail. If they were successful Apple would find a way to monetise the hell out of them.

Most people don't use PWAs... as they exist today. What would happen if Google added all the APIs to Chrome that are needed for every one of their iOS apps, and then offered them as "PWAs that work best with Google Chrome"? Google would not have to abide by App Store rules, nor the rules for app marketplaces, nor pay the Core Technology Fee of half a euro per install. Apple's entire approach of using their status as…

It may have to do something that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps.

Also, most companies have native apps already... Web apps are the future competitor, not present.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#63

Post by andy_ppp »

tremarley wrote: post #38

Since iOS 17.4 for EU users 1. Apple will DELETE user's data without notice 2. Lot of apps will stop working and there will be no way to access them without update 3. Web Push will stop working; users expecting notifications will never get them 4. Apple breaks the Web platform This was published in the document "Update on apps distributed in the European Union" https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-…

I take it this is just for PWAs?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#64

Post by andy_ppp »

pretext-1 wrote: post #40
gizmo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is a 3 trillion business that is out of growth drivers. They will need to squeeze more money out of everybody in the ecosystem to appease wall street. Or launch a new 500bn product line but I don’t think they have anything big in the pipeline.

They’re working on cars for sure

Will the Apple Car get slower over time and have the battery become unusable after 2 years?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#65

Post by agust »

troupo wrote: post #36
anon373839 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web apps aren’t inherently slow, bloated or underperforming. You can absolutely build a snappy, polished web app with a UI layer that rivals a native app. (I don’t personally enjoy working with JavaScript, but the reward of truly cross-platform development makes it worth doing when it’s a viable option.)

Funny how the vast majority of web apps are not snappy, or polished, or rival native apps. The whole discourse around PWAs is frankly schizophrenic. Web apps (esp. Electron-based) on desktop: universally regarded as bloated, slow, resource-intensive for the simplest tasks, breaking platform conventions etc. You add a P in front, and talk about mobile? Oh, PWAs are the bee's knees, just as good or better than native e…

Electron-based apps are not PWAs. PWAs do not need to be wrapped in a browser engine of their own, they use the installed browser engine. They are not inherently bloated or resource-intensive in any way.

There are not many good example of great PWAs precisely because Apple has been crippling web capabilities on iOS by banning other engines and degrading the experience in Safari for a decade.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#66

Post by troupo »

p_l wrote: post #61
troupo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One example: a while ago I worked on a bluetooth le based companion app for industrial sensors. The client would absolutely have built this as a web app if iOS had offered web bluetooth. With alternative engines Do you know that the only "alternative egnine" that implements hardware APIs is Chrome? Because it's a Chrome-only non-standard that Firefox opposes, too ?

As someone who long supportedy Firefox over Chrome... I wish Firefox had WebBluetooth or another API that could do that. But then Mozilla instead of helping set codec standards that everyone could use preferredyto show you could run codec in JS and opened a way for EME

Bluetooth is not a codec.

EME has nothing to do with Bluetooth.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#67

Post by lozenge »

szasamasa wrote: post #58
gizmo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of this except for your bafflement. Justice doesn’t always prevail and Apple’s legal gambit might work. Remember how Microsoft got in legal trouble for bundling software in the 90s? A judge ruled that Microsoft had to be broken up for their monopolistic and anticompetitive practices. And today Microsoft has leveraged the popularity of Excel and Powerpoint to get every business to use Teams and the re…

you are right, I could have expected this but I just did not... I did not expect Apple to try another round... their argument is just so transparent and weak in my eyes I am studying DMA and I still think there is no way they can get away with this I would really love some open discussion somewhere with legal experts and Chromium, Gecko, Webkit engineers, even android, windows, linux, mac, ios engineers. But even wit…

Apple uses W^X, meaning all the executable code is included in the app download. If the app writes to some memory, eg after downloading something from the internet, it can't then jump into- execute- that memory.

When Apple or anybody reviews an app's compiled code, the code they review is always the entirety of the code that can run on a user's device. This applies for App Store and for new post-DMA marketplaces (that can only install Apple Notarized apps).

The exception is Safari because it can compile JS into machine code and jump into it. That allowance is now being extended to new post-DMA web browsers. It's up to Safari and other post-DMA web browsers to prevent any JS from making nefarious machine code. The exception is already bad for iPhone security, but without it battery life and performance of web browsing would tank. Actually, you can remove the exception with the Lockdown Mode setting, eg if you are a politician or think advanced hackers might target you.

https://www.mdsec.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-ios-platform...

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#68

Post by neximo64 »

lozenge wrote: post #57
neximo64 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today . Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.

I don't mean just adding an improved notification API, I mean they could literally allow access to the entire SwiftUI and all other iOS APIs from the web. Heck, they could allow PWAs to run in Objective-C instead of JavaScript. At that point it would be indistinguishable from a native app, except that it would not be beholden to Apple's policies like Core Technology Fee, notarisation, payment scare screens, etc ( htt…

You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround.

I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use.

If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they're any successful on Android either.

And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#69

Post by merricksb »

Previously:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39388218 - Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose (techcrunch.com)

(815 points / 1 day ago / 766 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39386244 - Apple confirms iOS 17.4 removes Home Screen web apps in the EU (9to5mac.com)

(112 points / 1 day ago/ 125 comments)

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#70

Post by mrkeen »

throwaway49849 wrote: post #5

The creation of the Vision Pro, and now this direct assault on the open web, makes me believe that Apple is no longer has the vision to lead the industry effectively. It's a shame because it has enormous momentum behind it, which means every bad decision, like this one, will be felt be millions of people for years.

Eh.

Lightning instead of usb.

Firewire instead of usb.

Getting rid of all non-usbc ports.

Touch bar without physical escape.

Ctrl in the wrong place on the keyboard.

Every mbp looking the same with their attrocious glowing branding on the lid.

One-button mouse.

No audio jack.

The walled garden.

Charging a fee for the dev tools.

Yeah, these are all subjective - it's all crap I hate.

But my point is: is anything that anyone dislikes actually out of character for Apple? Or is it business as usual? Maybe Samsung will also create a useless headset and directly assault the open web too, making Apple still the 'industry leader'.

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