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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#91

Post by lozenge »

szasamasa wrote: post #78
lozenge wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple uses W^X, meaning all the executable code is included in the app download. If the app writes to some memory, eg after downloading something from the internet, it can't then jump into- execute- that memory. When Apple or anybody reviews an app's compiled code, the code they review is always the entirety of the code that can run on a user's device. This applies for App Store and for new post-DMA marketplaces (tha…

well if you trusted Apple with Safari you can do so why is it such a problem foryou if I trust Google with Chrome on an iPhone or Microsoft or Mozilla? I find this extremely misleading: "the exception is already bad for iPhone security"... not if you stay with Safari I travel regularly on rails with a private train company instead of the train company that actually built those rails... Apple has nothing to do with iP…

> the exception is already bad for iPhone security

It objectively is. Safari is a weak spot in the iPhone security.

https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42890/ https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42917/ https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2023-42916/

Three vulnerabilities that involve visiting a webpage, and all are due to the W^X exception I mentioned. Something that users do very often, unlike with installing an app. Apple also can't remove webpages from the internet, it can remove apps. It doesn't scan webpages before they're published, it does this with apps. A webpage can have an advert, which is loaded from a different server. A webpage can redirect you to another webpage run by another company, without user confirmation. Etc.

> or just solve these iOS challenges to make every web browser more secure

That comes at a cost though. Increased battery usage, memory usage, and slower web browsing. As I explained, there is a setting called Lockdown Mode which enables this, but it's a user choice.

> how come macOS is just fine with fully capable web browsers?

Well macOS is less secure than iOS - and Safari is a weak point on macOS as well - but users also don't expect it to be as secure. For example I expect that apps can read data of other apps on the desktop, but on the phone there is a separation enforced. There is a clause in the DMA for Apple to maintain security which is their justification for Notarization and some other stuff that isn't done on desktop.

Also macOS started in 2001 and has been basically backwards compatible since then, if it started in 2010 like the iPhone then it would be a lot different in terms of the security architecture.

You are being very argumentative and hostile without understanding what I'm saying, which I don't appreciate because I was just trying to answer your question about security.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#92

Post by szasamasa »

jsnell wrote: post #89
agust wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did this just get marked as dupe to pull it off the front page? How outrageous. The link has not been posted before.

Dupes are not just for the exact same URL. This topic has gotten a lot of attention on the frontpage, and there's no significant new information in this article.

then why did it get so many comments?

you seem to be protecting people from discussing what they want to discuss

in addition, I wrote 2 first comments asking people to focus on a deeper conversation

and my focus was both in my forcefully changed title and in my first article-like comment that what is actually happening is attacking web capabilities

the first 2 comments were mine, an article and an ask towards the community to discuss things on a higher level (tech, legal) and forget these emotional outbursts that I hate pwa and I just dont want you to install another browser and that oh I love my walled garden because peopel just can use Safari with its protections

even if my thread was also flooded with not too deep comments, I think shadow banning was uncalled for!

nobody changed the misleading title here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39386569

dma did not kill anything whereas my title true: I am pissed, Apple is after web capabilities to protect close-to-100B tax revenue

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#93

Post by FirmwareBurner »

threeseed wrote: post #27
throwaway49849 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AVP is one of the most out of touch products I've ever seen from a respected brand, and I can almost hear Steve Job's scathing criticisms of it, based on everything I know about him. Not to mention, it goes against the increasing trend of less screens and less tech. The fact that it got made and is being pushed so hard as the next step in computing, is bonkers. So to me, it contributes because it is another data…

> Steve Job's scathing criticisms of it, based on everything I know about him Vision Pro patent from 2007 when Steve Jobs was still CEO: https://twitter.com/ianzelbo/status/1753076050643575230

Have you looked at the patent? How is that supposed to be the Vision Pro?

It's just a pair of sky googles with 2 displays in front of the eyes, connected to an Airpod for watching media. It's not so much Vision Pro as it is Nintendo Virtual Boy. Actually the virtual boy was more advanced since it let you play games.

That kind of stereo display headset for watching videos inputs from external sources has existed since the 70's, long before Apple's patent 2007. How did they even get a patent for it? Another proof the patent system is broken since it seems they'll let you patent anything.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#94

Post by szasamasa »

palata wrote: post #88
p_l wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find PWAs great for all those little used or temporary apps. I have a bunch of specialized calculators installed as PWAs - they work great for the purposes. Similarly, there's no reason a conference should have a native app that will only pollute my system over time - PWAs are ideal for once-only events that aren't going to reuse the app for next edition.

> temporary apps Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow?

I think what was meant is lightweight.

Of course a web app can be heavyweight or lightweight just as a native app. Still in a sense that smaller companies might publish smaller apps as web apps to have only one codebase justifies a web app niche for lightweight apps.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#95

Post by tyleo »

mrkeen wrote: post #70
throwaway49849 wrote: post #5

The creation of the Vision Pro, and now this direct assault on the open web, makes me believe that Apple is no longer has the vision to lead the industry effectively. It's a shame because it has enormous momentum behind it, which means every bad decision, like this one, will be felt be millions of people for years.

Eh. Lightning instead of usb. Firewire instead of usb. Getting rid of all non-usbc ports. Touch bar without physical escape. Ctrl in the wrong place on the keyboard. Every mbp looking the same with their attrocious glowing branding on the lid. One-button mouse. No audio jack. The walled garden. Charging a fee for the dev tools. Yeah, these are all subjective - it's all crap I hate. But my point is: is anything that a…

Agreed with this. I feel like everyone complains about new Apple products. “The watch is square, no one will want it.”

Apple is still doing fine. I'm at least going to wait a few years before making claims about the Vision Pro being a failure.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#96

Post by azangru »

neximo64 wrote: post #53
lozenge wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't use PWAs... as they exist today. What would happen if Google added all the APIs to Chrome that are needed for every one of their iOS apps, and then offered them as "PWAs that work best with Google Chrome"? Google would not have to abide by App Store rules, nor the rules for app marketplaces, nor pay the Core Technology Fee of half a euro per install. Apple's entire approach of using their status as…

PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today . Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.

> Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store.

Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#97

Post by PaulHoule »

Kinda funny but when the rubber hit the road they did delete the word “Progressive” from “Profressive Web Apps”. Talk about a complete failure in branding, they should have done that years ago but the PWA pushers had the congenital fault almost all marketers have which is the inability to see themselves the way others see them.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#98

Post by pembrook »

meepmorp wrote: post #87
szasamasa wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

web apps are the future, not the present Apple was holding them back and just pulled the plug. Only if web programmers can count on future proof support will they produce web apps. In addition, most companies have already created native apps so again, web apps are the future, it is not an argument that there are few on iOS and yes, outlook or X are good examples

web apps are a lowest common denominator solution that result in shittier software with worse features, security, and privacy

The solution is to improve web app capabilities and security, not to devolve back to platform-specific fiefdoms just because there’s kinks to work out.

Disentangling apps from OS-specific environments is how we introduce competition back into computing.

Apple and Microsoft are the most valuable companies in the history of earth due to these fiefdoms and it’s about time we got some reversion to the mean.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#99

Post by collaborative »

azangru wrote: post #96
neximo64 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today . Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.

> Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?

I think he's referring to the justifications Steve Jobs gave to kill Flash. Apparently, it was because he really wanted a complete web standard that didn't revolve a particular framework. Apple then introduced the App Store and forgot all about its desire for (complete) web standards

So apple has killed both Flash and (useful) web standards and we are left with unnecessary, gate-keeping, expensive, price gauging App Stores. Hypocrisy at its finest. But at least it's got an Apple on it, so I guess it's fine

It used to be possible to "grow" stuff online. People made a living from developing Flash games (and websites). Aggregators competed and paid well for content. It's now all going to Apple's shareholders and Wall Street, and it's a complete waste of time to develop anything that needs publishing via the App Store. What a sad state of affairs

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#100

Post by p_l »

troupo wrote: post #66
p_l wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who long supportedy Firefox over Chrome... I wish Firefox had WebBluetooth or another API that could do that. But then Mozilla instead of helping set codec standards that everyone could use preferredyto show you could run codec in JS and opened a way for EME

Bluetooth is not a codec. EME has nothing to do with Bluetooth.

And codecs and EME were examples of attitude, not about Bluetooth...
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