Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#661

Post by ImPostingOnHN » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:22 PM UTC

mckn1ght wrote: post #657

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe the concept of a market has any fundamental place in morality, and my morality isn't limited to any particular "market". Indeed, who apple is or isn't able to sell to, doesn't affect what people think is moral or immoral. As for Apple's CEO representing Apple's customers: Are you sure? We didn't elect him. We just bought stuff made by an organization he currently runs.

So you think government can prove morality, but markets cannot? If you don't think government is a marketplace where the currency is political capital, then you have a naive view of how governments work. Also, I don't believe the EU is a direct democracy, so the representative morality is lossy. Have you never disagreed with a decision made by a politician you voted for? I'm saying that customers decide whether or no…

Yes, a democratic government represents the people, and thus their moral stance. A market sells stuff. There's really no relationship between the two nouns. No reason to compare them. You might as well ask, "So the people can decide what's moral, but a jar of pickles can't?" Yes, that's correct. A jar of pickles is technically a market, so this analogy applies particularly well.

> I'm saying that customers decide whether or not to buy from Apple based on whether they resonate with them from a moral standpoint

I fully believe that you might do that yourself. There's no evidence everyone else does, or even that a majority do. Especially since most people aren't informed of working conditions involved in manufacturing Apple products (or indeed, many others' products).

It's just not believable that everyone thinks that buying a product = agreeing with every single moral stance made by the person currently running the company. And what if he changed his mind tomorrow? Would he offer a full refund to everybody who asked for one?

> And I said Apple's CEO is accountable to their customers, not that they represent them.

He's not accountable to them, only to the board*, but we're discussing representation - that is, speaking on behalf of a people, according to those people, not you or I or the speaker individually. If you mentioned accountability while we were on the topic of representation, and I returned us to the topic of representation, you're welcome :)

[*]: Your example illustrates this: a complex chain of accountability from CEO to Corporation and BoD to Corporation and Corporation to shareholders is required for any action to happen. Being accountable to customers means customers can decide to fire him _directly_.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#662

Post by niutech » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:23 PM UTC

crossroadsguy wrote: post #582

niutech wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't looked at Xperia XA2/X/XZ2/XZ3/10 on Sailfish OS, have you?

And do what with it? Use it to make campaign videos so that my bank will allow it or make apps for it? Or my stock broker? Or the pharmacy app? Or the delivery app? Oh, or maybe I should apply for a visa so that I can travel to somewhere where that is sold? Yeah, makes sense.

All my banks are accessible through Angelfish web browser. If you need Android apps, Sailfish OS supports them. Or else install AOSP.

We live in XXI century, there is something like Internet, you don't have to travel in order to buy a phone, see e.g. eBay.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#663

Post by arghwhat » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:23 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #222

arghwhat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, while the argument is entirely bogus as "PWAs are unsafe" implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe and thus stopping PWAs but not loading pages is pointless, you do have to have full trust in Apple for security of your device as they are the sole provider for the core platform providing most of the security primitives used. That just doesn't exclude trusting others as well.

> Well, while the argument is entirely bogus as "PWAs are unsafe" implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe Except that's exactly what Apple is saying. Their engine -- and their brand depends on it -- offers users assurances arbitrary engines do not offer. Apple says PWAs are safe because Safari is safe, while not-Safari PWAs are not-safe. And, if not safe, Apple is at least accountable. Google'…

> Except that's exactly what Apple is saying.

You misunderstand. If a foreign browser engine was to be made available for PWAs, it would be because the user installed the browser and browsed the web with it. In other words, if loading a web page in this browser was unsafe - which is what a PWA is - the user would already be compromised. PWA or bookmark does not matter.

PWAs do not change the risk profile. PWAs only get a few extra APIs, but nothing major. Location, microphone, webcam, bluetooth, usb, etc. are all standard web APIs available to web pages, not PWA specific.

The argument that PWA specifically has a special risk profile is null and void. The only sensible reasoning is that Apple is strongly against opening their platform at all (their way of implementing compliance is borderline malicious), and maybe want to weasel their way out of any effort they can avoid (allowing users to install new types of apps is zero work, changing which app opens a link by default is near-zero, while allowing users to replace the engine for PWAs require a bit more integration).

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#664

Post by arghwhat » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:25 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #291

arghwhat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, while the argument is entirely bogus as "PWAs are unsafe" implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe and thus stopping PWAs but not loading pages is pointless, you do have to have full trust in Apple for security of your device as they are the sole provider for the core platform providing most of the security primitives used. That just doesn't exclude trusting others as well.

>implies that loading web pages in that browser itself is unsafe Since when was loading web pages ever considered safe, at least by those who actually breathe computer? It's frankly alarming how much trust we (must) give to Arbitrary, Remotely Executed Code(tm), especially given how many attack vectors are remote code executions.

Well, that's a different argument altogether. Whether you consider browsing the web in any browser safe or not, the fact that PWAs do not change the risk profile of loading such pages remain true.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#665

Post by cma » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:26 PM UTC

Gigachad wrote: post #180

cma wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the plain browser already can request camera permissions, in a bad security situation a site that didn't request it still receives it from the browser's system level request. This is just Apple wanting to avoid people being able to develop a platform on top of their platform without paying a tax.

Browsers can still do that. It's more that PWAs look like entirely separate apps which the user would expect to be sandboxed. While a tab in a browser is clearly part of the browser app.

If I gave camera permissions to the zoom website on my browser, it is way worse if a random malicious email link gets them too on a different domain than if a permission spreads across PWAs I hand installed. This is Apple shaking people down.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#666

Post by oarsinsync » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

geoelectric wrote: post #534

oarsinsync wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every conforming cable The problem is all the non-conforming cables that people have, that look exactly the same as conforming cables.

Except they were responding to a comment criticizing USB-C PD as a standard. Non-standard cables are irrelevant to that discussion.

> We can't expect normal people to understand why there are a dozen different cable types that all have the same tip but charge at vastly different rates

Is the part of the GP comment I was responding to. The connectors form part of the standard. There’s no way to identify a standards-conforming cable from a non-standards-conforming cable by looking at it. They all look the same.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#667

Post by scarface_74 » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:34 PM UTC

benguild wrote: post #101

LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

So why is there also low usage on Android?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#668

Post by axelthegerman » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #653

I’m a bit of a hobby coder, and I have enjoyed writing small, home cooked apps ( https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/ ) and publishing them as PWAs that my friends and family can enjoy. I can’t justify an annual 99 USD for an Apple developer licence, and my family have a mix of iPhones and Androids. This step makes it much less possible for me to do this kind of “home cooked” development, and it makes me…

> But I guess they don’t really care, which is sad.

Hit the nail on the head there.

Currently they care about protecting their iOS monopoly. I'm not sure there is much they care about more.

PWA, alternative browsers, alternative app stores are all just little pawns in the iOS/Android duopoly game

I too was very excited that PWAs are finally here and work everywhere. I thought being open web technology they wouldn't go away easily - guess what Apple always finds a way.

They really just are the new Microsoft from the old days

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#669

Post by scarface_74 » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:38 PM UTC

anon373839 wrote: post #548

dangus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

You think that a technology that allows mobile apps to be developed and distributed in a way that’s secure, free and open, and platform-independent is a solution in search of a problem? Honestly?

Yes, just like every other cross platform GUI has been a dumpster fire since Java Swing all the way up to Electron.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#670

Post by scarface_74 » Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:40 PM UTC

TheCapeGreek wrote: post #490

dangus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

>technical solution looking for a problem In some regards yes. In practical regards they're a threat to app store margins (on all app stores, not just Apple), so there's no incentive to truly support them other than developers being loud about it. >I don’t even know where to find one. Because Apple has crippled the ability for you to use them, so developers can't really spend time working on them. Chicken and egg pro…

It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from in app purchases of pay to win games. They are not going to all of the sudden move to PWAs and on top of that, they already use cross platform engines.