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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#601

Post by throwaway49849 »

throwaway49850 wrote: post #549
throwaway49849 wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social contract has been that these big companies benefit from the free work of open source maintainers, and they continue to work together to support open standards. This latest maneuver from Apple, while well within their rights, is a big FU to everyone who builds and maintains the software that they depend on. They've broken the contract by continuing to hobble open web tech.

That has never been the social contract. I hate this outcome as much as the next guy and I'm sure Apple could have continued to support PWAs if they wanted to. And they should have done it. That being said, I'm tired of the argument that OSS maintainers are being owed anything (beyond gratitude). They publish their software under licences they themselves choose. As long as someone follows the license, they are good.…

I don't mean to imply that the OSS maintainers are owed anything, because I don't believe that. There is still a social contract without anyone being owed anything. You haven't really given an example of why you don't think it exists.

Also, to what do I owe the honor of you creating a username based on mine, specifically to reply to me?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#602

Post by gtsteve »

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #464
thimp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

>Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. The more important context is the legal one, not what laypeople think. Apple is presenting PWAs as viable alternatives to the app store in a legal context: https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Apple%20Pty%20Lim…

Companies can quite happily hold two opposing viewpoints when it suits them. Apple's products usually have some kind of pleasing consistency but that doesn't mean their corporate dealings have to be.

In a similar vein, a startup will be very happy to talk about how valuable it is, except when it comes to talking to tax authorities, whereupon suddenly their shares are borderline worthless.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#603

Post by nip »

MrDresden wrote: post #508
nip wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s hand has been forced to implement changes that didn’t fit their vision and roadmap. I imagine that if you’re on HN you are close to developers or are a developer yourself. And if so, I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline (ie, you don’t have time to imp…

That is simply just nonsense. They had 1,5 years from the time of being identified as gatekeepers to work on this. The DMA was voted on by the EU parliament and then the council in july 2022, Apple was identified as a gatekeeper in september 2022, the law became legally implemented in november 2022, with gatekeepers required to comply with it by march 6th 2024. I do not buy for a second that the richest tech company…

The simple answer is that it’s not worth it to them.

They don’t see money with PWA at this point in time and therefore decided that breaking support was not a big deal.

It obviously outrages everyone on HN, but HN is not your average customer of Apple.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#604

Post by [deleted] »

literalAardvark wrote: post #575
illumin8 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can dr…

That's true of all things that don't respect standards, not a PD issue. If you buy a wheel and it's not up to spec it'll crack. If you buy a power cable and it has a type-c on one end and a 110/220v plug on the other, that's not going to work well either. Buy stuff that's up to spec, and it'll be fine.

[deleted]

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#605

Post by InsomniacL »

So you can build a website that runs on iPhone using some other browser engine that requests permission to use the camera...

But if you want to move that website into a PWA that runs on iPhone that uses some other browser engine that requests permission to use the camera then, that browser engine can't be trusted?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#606

Post by alexdbird »

jc_dc wrote: post #536
dangus wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Granted, they also want people to stay on the web to continue using Google.com, so I guess those are two competing priorities. That to me is a bit of an indicator that Apple just doesn’t believe in the merits of the technology. I think they might be asking the same question in asking: what problem is this solving? Every platform…

Google have an interest in moving people away from desktop applications because they don’t have a desktop OS (not counting Chromebook). We run 3 SaaS apps. One is strictly native, and the other two are strictly web. Writing for 4 platforms on the native app is an extremely expensive exercise and then we are also subject to the insanity that is the App Store. Long story here, everything from App Store review times on…

> why PWA’s are awesome

You've described some advantages to you as a developer. For the average user, apps that change all the time and effectively make them a tester aren't such a no brainer!

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#607

Post by InsomniacL »

zer00eyz wrote: post #22
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

Why can the camera be accessed through third-party browser engines so long as it's in a browser window?

If the browser engine can't be trusted to segregate camera access through a PWA then why is it trusted to segregate it in-app?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#608

Post by rahkiin »

deminature wrote: post #86
zadokshi wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one meads “scare screens”. I’m. It sure what I think about this yet, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to land on “allowing less privacy aware browsers to run web “apps” with heightened privileges seems like a recipe for disaster. Maybe in the long term ther is a way to do it well. But for now I’m not sure.

Every app on iOS is sandboxed and the damage they can do is very limited. There's risks involved in opening up to third-party apps, and PWAs are only marginally more dangerous. Non-WebKit based browsers don't even exist today, this is not a real problem and won't be for some time. The obvious solution for now is to enable WebKit PWAs and turn on PWAs for other as-yet uninvented custom browsers as they release, testin…

I think the pwa arch might be different. Running in the same app (safari) with multiple open screens, but with soft sandboxing like tabs have.

They would need new apis and architecture around PWA to support this for any browser I think.

Also, they are not allowed to have Safari-only OS features anymore due to DMA so allowing PWAs only in safari would be against the law

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#609

Post by rahkiin »

InsomniacL wrote: post #605

So you can build a website that runs on iPhone using some other browser engine that requests permission to use the camera... But if you want to move that website into a PWA that runs on iPhone that uses some other browser engine that requests permission to use the camera then, that browser engine can't be trusted?

I think PWA integration architecture needs to be rebuild for supporting different browsers and it was not a priority because of low usage (their words).

I can imagine an architecture where every pwa does not run a whole Safari instance but just a tab. Then all those ‘app looking’ pwas run in the same actual app.

Or they just dont trust google to make no native apps anymore for the app store…

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#610

Post by j16sdiz »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #476
illumin8 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can dr…

The charging speed of USB-C cables (C on both ends) is pretty much just the slow ones and the fast ones, and "slow" is 60 watts.

No. PD is optional in standard.
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