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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#421

Post by dangus »

claytongulick wrote: post #393
johnnyanmac wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple ap…

I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.

But the real question is where most of your users live.

I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps.

Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users are.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#422

Post by [deleted] »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #351
dangus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple ap…

[deleted]

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#423

Post by jchw »

turquoisevar wrote: post #418
benguild wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

> The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity This is a trite argument that hasn’t been true ever since Jen Simmons joined Apple in 2020 and changed the course of Safari significantly to the point that PWAs not only are viable, they have been given feature parity with native apps on many fronts. Simultaneously, the argument completely bypasses the fac…

That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform, but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative; Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what, PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps, it's not even really close. It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for the EU.

What people want isn't PWAs, they just want the kind of capabilities that computers have had for decades, including many of Apple's current computers for sale today. To be able to install an application and run it.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#424

Post by rapidaneurism »

sensanaty wrote: post #405
natch wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, as an abusive stepparent, you run the "Spy on Me" PWA on your stepdaughter's phone, and click the permission dialog, and she's none the wiser. Do you think that's great? Apple does not.

If you're an abusive step-parent with access to your daughter's phone, you can already install "Spy on Me" software in the form of regular apps, a PWA changes nothing here.

True, but in the regular app case apple gets its cut.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#425

Post by 0______0 »

xvector wrote: post #389
johanneskanybal wrote: post #25

As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.

As an American dev I can't wait to see tech companies leave the EU and leave it in shambles as the EU realizes it never learnt how to innovate, only legislate and rent-seek from our companies. Frankly, the region needs us far more than we need it.

What a dim witted argument. Go read a book on macroeconomics.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#426

Post by dangus »

jc_dc wrote: post #381
dangus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

PWA’s on Android can be installed directly from a website…it’s awesome, less friction and less scammy than the Play Store. On iOS you need to use the Share > Add to Home Screen which normies have no clue about. You’ll find out if the site supports PWA features AFTER you add it to your Home Screen. This of course is done entirely on purpose to make them harder to find and less appealing than the revenue generating App…

Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Granted, they also want people to stay on the web to continue using Google.com, so I guess those are two competing priorities.

That to me is a bit of an indicator that Apple just doesn’t believe in the merits of the technology. I think they might be asking the same question in asking: what problem is this solving?

Every platform with a web browser has a better way to run applications, which is to just run an application. A web site that is masquerading as an installed application is basically just a less capable application.

As a side note, I’m also not really sure how an app store can be considered scammier than the entire web. The web is a Wild West with far fewer “rules” than the Play Store.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#427

Post by nip »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #357
wokwokwok wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. Indeeed, and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. That's the argument; if you write an app that lets you run other apps inside it how do we make sure your app does security correctly? When you look at it from that perspective, you can…

>and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. so, Apple? Since Apple has also required browsers for years to use their own safari backend, this isn't even an issue of "oh well it doesn't work on Firefox". Sounds like they cornered themselves there.

Apple’s hand has been forced to implement changes that didn’t fit their vision and roadmap.

I imagine that if you’re on HN you are close to developers or are a developer yourself.

And if so, I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline (ie, you don’t have time to implement everything and must make choices)

Now replace you with “Apple” and “important customer” with EU.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#428

Post by johnnyanmac »

dangus wrote: post #421
claytongulick wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.

But the real question is where most of your users live. I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps. Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users a…

I mean, PWAs aren't made with the goal to maximize User UX. It's a cost saving measure like any other solution that isn't making 2 dedicated native apps for IOS/Android.it won't get as much traffic as a native app, but it's almost "free" to deploy.

To use the gaming console example, it's not unlike using an emulator to launch your game on PC (if you could somehow monetize an emulated rom). It's not the ideal experience, but it requires very little extra work.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#429

Post by KingOfCoders »

When companies and the state collide, and the state is serious about the issue, the companies lose. Always. I know they want to win and the CEOs ego - I can imagine Cook in his office - is hurt, so "Ok, then you don't get PWAs!", and for some time companies get away with it (especially startups operating a grey area until they get enough customers), but in the end, the state wins. Because it can put people in jail and the company can't.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#430

Post by johnnyanmac »

nip wrote: post #427
johnnyanmac wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. so, Apple? Since Apple has also required browsers for years to use their own safari backend, this isn't even an issue of "oh well it doesn't work on Firefox". Sounds like they cornered themselves there.

Apple’s hand has been forced to implement changes that didn’t fit their vision and roadmap. I imagine that if you’re on HN you are close to developers or are a developer yourself. And if so, I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline (ie, you don’t have time to imp…

>I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline

Sure. I sure do wish the demands were actually consumer centric, and not "force all these advertising tracking into your site, tank performance, and grab a bunch of unneeded user data".

And of course, if I maliciously complied and "oops the tracking only gets 1% of user data", I would simply be fired instead of get another strongly worded letter leading to meetings re-defining what "grab a bunch if unneeded user data" is.

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