> "Dutch parenting" allowing kids to bike in the rain...
That's how I grew up IN America. So what is parenting in America now?
The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
51–60 of 183 posts
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#52I'm somewhat skeptical that the Dutch social safety net is why Dutch parents let their kids "ride their bikes in the rain unsupervised". Does anyone believe that Americans would be more like Dutch parents with a social safety net? What causal chain is necessary for that result, when American parents tend to be be like that due to anxiety about monstrous crimes? Do we really believe that the crimes happen enough that…
> I'm somewhat skeptical that the Dutch social safety net is why Dutch parents let their kids "ride their bikes in the rain unsupervised" It's blindingly obvious for anybody who has experienced both sides. Dutch parents let their children outside because the roads are safe for children to bike and walk. bikelanes, bumpouts, bollards, slow cars in town, ... American roads are a thunderdome by comparison. Most american…
> Most americans just cannot see it, fish in a bowl, surrounded by water.
They just don't have a comparison. How many Americans have been to the Netherlands, or even Europe, let alone have lived there?
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#53I'm somewhat skeptical that the Dutch social safety net is why Dutch parents let their kids "ride their bikes in the rain unsupervised". Does anyone believe that Americans would be more like Dutch parents with a social safety net? What causal chain is necessary for that result, when American parents tend to be be like that due to anxiety about monstrous crimes? Do we really believe that the crimes happen enough that…
> I'm somewhat skeptical that the Dutch social safety net is why Dutch parents let their kids "ride their bikes in the rain unsupervised" It's blindingly obvious for anybody who has experienced both sides. Dutch parents let their children outside because the roads are safe for children to bike and walk. bikelanes, bumpouts, bollards, slow cars in town, ... American roads are a thunderdome by comparison. Most american…
> American roads are a thunderdome by comparison.
Teach your kids to not challenge Master Blaster to to-the-death combat in Thunderdome if it really worries you. My concern has never, ever been that they'll get run over. Not by age 7 or 8, when I would consider letting them wander unsupervised. There are many traffic fatalities in the US each year, but those occur not to people crossing suburban streets (or rural roads). Hell, I don't think they much happen when people are darting across downtown streets either.
It is a combination of abduction anxiety plus people who are worried the neighbors will call CPS on them. Those latter sort might be able to break the cultural norm that's forming, but there have been high-profile cases of people siccing the authorities on them for letting their kids be independent. I think any survey not specifically designed to lead them to other conclusions would discover this to be the case.
Or is this more r/fuckcars propaganda, and I've lost the plot? Are we all nostalgic for the days when only party officials could ever afford a Lada or Trebant, and the proletariat had more important things to worry about?
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#54> American parents on both sides of the political spectrum know this and are increasingly frustrated by how little they have been offered in this country—particularly in exchange for the high taxes they pay. How much taxes do Americans think we Europeans pay? Those dutch parents are paying close to 60-70% taxes once you account also for VAT
> 60-70% taxes The highest Dutch tax bracket is 50%, but that only applies to income over 75K EUR. Also, VAT doesn't apply to rent, and it's reduced for food. Housing and food are most household's largest expenses. So the 21% sales tax can be deceptive. Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38%. That is to say, taxes take 38% of all the wealth produced in the Netherlands. For some comparison purposes, the number in the…
> Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38%
This is not necessarily a good metric for high income right? Companies pay less taxes for sure then a high earning couple.
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you mean money-wise? What's the point if you're not happy? The only thing I want for my kids besides them being happy, is that their happiness does not depend on the misery of other human beings. Funnily enough, "success" is often used as a synonym for "being a sociopath born with a silver spoon who does not give a damn about not making others miserable".
>The only thing I want for my kids besides them being happy, is that their happiness does not depend on the misery of other human beings. Not a single sane person has ever suggested that success depends on the misery of other human beings.
I think the point is that - rather than deliberately wishing misery on others - our society is set up such that success often or always implies creating misery for others.
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#56Skeptic that I am I do wonder if this is something normal in all of the Netherlands or specific to, like, these hyper urbanized walkable places in (clearly) affluent neighborhoods of Amsterdam. While the social safety net is a factor I'd honestly like to know if what's true of her sister's children is also true of some kid living in a country village or wherever.
I've never lived in the Netherlands, but what's described in the article is pretty much how it is most places in Norway. Sure, if you have to go 5km to go football practice someone might drive you, but otherwise kids roam around on their own a lot.
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#57I'm strongly in favor of expanding the US social safety net, but I don't want to neglect other obvious factors here. Dutch children are able to walk or bike outside unsupervised. In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. I think this kind of freedom of movement has a big effect on happiness, it certainly did for me. ETA relevant links: https://yout…
> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. It may depends on where in the US you're talking about, but in my area none of this is actually true. Although lots of people believe it is.
My friend and I were stopped by an officer and asked to show identification. We were just walking down the street, age 12. This is in the midwest.
Dismiss complaints about police at your own peril.
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. It may depends on where in the US you're talking about, but in my area none of this is actually true. Although lots of people believe it is.
Sounds nice. I've personally spoken on the phone with a police officer who told me he'd involve CPS if he saw my daughter walking (two blocks!) to school again.
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Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#59We have a lot more diversity in the US. More diverse level of education, more diverse level of income, more diverse housing, more diverse everything.
I'm happy to let me kids roam the neighborhood. But I do get calls from other parents that think I'm crazy. The helicopter Dad down the street stopped talking to me, I'd guess his kids protest his watchful eye when they see my kids free.
Re: The happiest kids in the world have social safety nets
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the asymptotic case, European countries levy 100% tax, and take over all economic and social activity, including child-rearing, with the role parents being only a field in the database.
I can’t tell if this is satire or a genuine point being made. It’s a long way from reality if anyone was in any doubt!
It looks like some political fringe theory talking point.