Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#201

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:15 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #186

ncallaway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. And it’s underhanded and illegal when employers do it, because there’s an imbalance of power between employee and employee. Unions exist to even out that balance of power. When employers engage in that kind of activity it further increases the imbalance of power. For example, in this case, they were using that tactic to support their ability to steal from employees.

To clarify this further: The employer is already a collective, "A business", and the hiring manager is operating with the full power of that collective in hiring/firing negotations. A union is a collective to balance power against the business (collective). A cartel is a collective of collectives (ie., a group of businesses) operating to defeat free market competition regulation, in this sense the cartel is balancing…

Unions are cartels of sellers of labor.

If they're good or bad is another matter.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#202

Post by TheCleric » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:15 PM UTC

eterm wrote: post #124

lupire wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "industry buddies" but seems like a Boogeyman meant to scare people.

That's exactly what it is, but the kids they employ don't know better. The idea that there's a cabal of restaurant owners who get together to discuss in detail how they're breaking the law and maintain a blacklist is absurd when you stop to think about it. But they're more than happy to let those kind of rumours keep doing the rounds to scare the naive young people into not sticking up for themselves.

I think there’s one way this might work. To get hired at the next place they might want you to have experience. So you put your prior employer on the application, the new restaurant checks your references and mysteriously decides to pass on you.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#203

Post by Jensson » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:16 PM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #135

When it is actual theft why the owners/authors of said theft are not charged criminally? Why laws are asymmetric? When Hertz complains about car theft while there is none the renters are getting charged.

Refusing to pay your bills is treated the same for private persons, you just don't call that rent theft. Calling being late with a payment theft doesn't make it theft.

I am very happy that I don't get treated like a criminal just because I forgot to pay a bill, I don't see why companies should be treated differently.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#204

Post by TheCleric » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:19 PM UTC

pierat wrote: post #144

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. No one will get arrested for even stealing $1000s of dollars of luxury items on camera (at least in CA, a trend setter for other states). https://amhsnews.org/10386/justice-awareness/shoplifting-the... > On September 30th, 2023, Governor Newsom signed into law Senate Bill No. 553, essentially making it illegal for retail workers to confront looters, burglars, and shoplifters. > A Walgreens employee working in Sa…

Hell, I worked at $retailer for a time, and even their statements were to "DO NOT ENGAGE SHOPLIFTERS". Worse yet, I can scarcely imagine some $12/hr being told to chase after shoplifters... That's gonna end up being shot or shivved. And frankly, there were times in which I saw people steal food. And in those cases, I never saw a thing! Especially when formula was being "acquired". One time, during Black Friday, someo…

That’s because it’s a liability issue. Better to let someone steal a $100 item than get sued for $1000000 because an employee chased them into the parking lot and got stabbed.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#205

Post by vundercind » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:19 PM UTC

Philorandroid wrote: post #191

vundercind wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is in the name of our economic system: Capital -ism. We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority.

That's such a yellow-press non-answer. Annoyed interpretations of the name of something doesn't offer any insight into, or affect the reality of, the thing.

I think it’s interesting that the labeling and the observed behavior of the system really do match.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#206

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:19 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #72

pierat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality.... If you steal $100 worth of food from a store, they'll call the cops and arrest you. If the store steals wages from you in the tune of $1000+, its a.... CIVIL MATTER (waves hands).

Which incident receives media coverage as it happens?

I think you're getting the wrong takeaway from OP's comment...

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#207

Post by crazygringo » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:20 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #194

crazygringo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it also works the other way -- If you withhold $20 from a bill payment, the worst that happens is collections. The company has to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, a company employee decides to settle the bill themselves by visiting your home and stealing $20 from your wallet, that's criminal theft. They will be arrested by the poli…

Because business owners and politicians working for the economy decide that. It’s fun to come up with rules that would fix imbalance but curious how you think such rules can happen without deeper (however achievable) changes to society predicating them outside current norms (eg voting and waiting; maybe organizing around getting more people to vote and wait with you)

Voters decide things too. But that's not just a hot-button issue for any voter I've ever met. Why not?

It actually wouldn't be too hard to implement without wage theft in either direction -- mandate some kind of escrow functionality by law, built into direct deposit.

In other words, if you work daily, the money is deposited in "escrow mode" at the start of your shift, and you can verify it in your banking app. But it's not released until you clock out. Or if your salary is every two weeks, it's deposited in escrow mode at the start of the period. At the end of the business day each day, a day's proportion is automatically released unless the bank is informed that your employment has been terminated.

But the point is that businesses could never try to save money by not paying their employees, because they couldn't get the money back anyways. If your boss doesn't approve that you completed the day's work when you actually did, the money stays in escrow until it gets settled by a court.

So I don't buy that it's just because business owners and politicians "decide" things. If voters wanted what I just described, it could easily happen. But I just came up with this proposal on my own -- I've never heard it described by anyone. It's not something voters seem to care about. Why not?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#208

Post by pitaj » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:20 PM UTC

mrangle wrote: post #37

Slaving: Not paying for work. Internships: some may be legit, most are slave labor schemes with many being deeply institutionalized in systems such as healthcare and education. Lower than minimum wage with an expectation that tips will make up the difference (just be done with tipping, pay at least minimum wage, and raise food prices). Mistreatment

That is not the definition of slavery. Slavery is being forced to work.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#209

Post by mjburgess » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:20 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #201

mjburgess wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify this further: The employer is already a collective, "A business", and the hiring manager is operating with the full power of that collective in hiring/firing negotations. A union is a collective to balance power against the business (collective). A cartel is a collective of collectives (ie., a group of businesses) operating to defeat free market competition regulation, in this sense the cartel is balancing…

Unions are cartels of sellers of labor. If they're good or bad is another matter.

Yeah, they can be, so its more vauge than i've made it out to be. The underlying problem is that employee-employer is individual-collective; so in some sense, there "has" to be a union option if this becomes too one sided.

But a cartel is never required, since businesses competing with each other is the goal of a free market.

I would agree that if unions become more powerful than businesses, so it ends up single-business vs "union-of-unions" you can get the same effects.

Hopefully the asymmetry is clear though. Cartels are never permissible in a free market, but unions often are because of the need for labour to compete "on the same terms" as business.

ie., the mere existence of a union isnt a sign the market is non-free; whereas the mere existence of a cartel is.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#210

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 4:21 PM UTC

This has happened to me! In a programming job, no less!

Is this something which could be addressed through the use of a specialized AI assistant?

The biggest barrier to uncompensated workers is the cost of litigation. If the worker could represent themselves effectively, then this would stop.