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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#91

Post by alkonaut »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #83
alkonaut wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there has ever been a case (I'm sure there has) where someone stole say a $20 from the register, because the manager owed them $20. And whether the fact they could prove the manager owed them money made any difference in the theft case.

Two wrongs don't make a right in the eyes of the law I'm afraid. That said, there's been plenty of cases where the punishment for a crime was lessened due to the circumstances, like assault in self-defense. Dunno if that applies to theft vs wage theft though. That said, it's not a crime if you don't get caught. This too goes both ways.

> Two wrongs don't make a right in the eyes of the law I'm afraid

Of course it doesn't. But you'd still think that the one theft couldn't be reprimanded by a court while the other was handwaved at the same time. What would be interesting wouldn't be if someone could get away with that (they couldn't, and shouldn't) but whether the fact that the matter was taken to court - presumably by the employer who was also guilty of a provable crime - led to any consequences for the employer.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#92

Post by avgcorrection »

Lalabadie wrote: post #87
avgcorrection wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not only would they fire you but they'd call up all their industry buddies and you'd basically be on every other restaurants no-hire list. So like a much-dreaded union for employers except it’s underhanded and illegal.

But with enough lobbying, it _could_ be legal! (This to point out that most lobbies are to employers what unions are to employees)

They’re just voting with their (fat) wallets!

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#93

Post by ncallaway »

avgcorrection wrote: post #73
spamizbad wrote: post #9

This phenomena is pretty widespread in the service industry and I would venture to say that a significant minority of businesses participate in some version of wage theft. For example, one of my jobs right out of high school was waiting tables at a local restaurant. If you were opening, the expectation from owners and management was you'd get in early to help open but would wait 15 minutes before service started befo…

> not only would they fire you but they'd call up all their industry buddies and you'd basically be on every other restaurants no-hire list. So like a much-dreaded union for employers except it’s underhanded and illegal.

Yes, exactly.

And it’s underhanded and illegal when employers do it, because there’s an imbalance of power between employee and employee.

Unions exist to even out that balance of power. When employers engage in that kind of activity it further increases the imbalance of power.

For example, in this case, they were using that tactic to support their ability to steal from employees.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#94

Post by yareal »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #53
alkonaut wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the factors are beyond your control when it comes to how busy a place is. Sure a smile helps fill a restaurant, but mostly - it's other people's responsibility. Anyone employed full time in an empty restaurant for a full month should both make a living wage AND have 40h work. If there isn't enough work to fill the shifts, or enough guests to make tips - that's not the service staff's problem, it's the owner.

If you are working at a place that doesn't have volume for a month...thats on you. Restaurants are a dime a dozen and slow ones die quick. Getting a job at one is simply filling out an application and talking to the manager. It's very easy. Sure, if you live in rural area maybe it can be tough, but if you are in the 80% who live in metro areas, the bar is very low to find a place(s) where you can do well.

If you work, you deserve a living wage. Tipped labor sucks for a host of reasons, but even if you pick a "bad" restaurant you should still get enough money from your work to live.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#95

Post by MSFT_Edging »

MOARDONGZPLZ wrote: post #41
dbingham wrote: post #26

One of the clearest illustrations of the deeply injust structural power imbalance at the heart of our economic system is wage theft. If your employer withholds $20 from your paycheck it's a civil violation of contract law. You have to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, you decide to pay yourself by taking $20 from the till, that's criminal theft…

Not quite true, DOL will go to bat for you and fine the employer and get you paid. Violations of labor law are not simply small claims civil matters. Some employers get large fines.

I think the point is the employer simply gets a fine while the reverse would see criminal penalty. This lopsided application of the law shows it was rigged from the start. We should be holding managers and whoever gave them the order criminally liable.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#96

Post by darth_avocado »

sneak wrote: post #66
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

People thinking wage theft only affects lower wage workers, let me tell you how tech companies commit wage theft: 1. Having annual components to wages (RSUs, bonuses), making you work all year and firing you just before they have to pay you. 2. Having no overtime for salaried employees 3. Having employees work extra responsibilities that are not part of the job description by promising promotions and then not giving…

Any promises not made in writing and signed by both parties aren’t promises. None of these are theft, just poor business skills on the part of the employees. Get it in writing so you can sue later, or don’t ever count on it. It’s basic business skills.

> It’s basic business skills

Job offers are often take it or leave it, because of the inherent power dynamics in the industry. These “basic business skills” will essentially leave you out of a job.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#97

Post by lupire »

spamizbad wrote: post #9

This phenomena is pretty widespread in the service industry and I would venture to say that a significant minority of businesses participate in some version of wage theft. For example, one of my jobs right out of high school was waiting tables at a local restaurant. If you were opening, the expectation from owners and management was you'd get in early to help open but would wait 15 minutes before service started befo…

The "industry buddies" but seems like a Boogeyman meant to scare people.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#98

Post by gadders »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #33
gadders wrote: post #8

From the article: >> There are numerous forms of wage theft, from employers not compensating workers for time worked, violating minimum wage and overtime laws, misclassifying employees as independent contractors, not providing legally required meal breaks, confiscating worker tips, or illegally taking deductions from worker wages. Yeah, one of those isn't like the others. I know unions and the tax people hate it, but…

Absolutely. This however is empathically and clearly not about people who enjoy perks of independent contracting. I'm aware of no union or "tax people" in my circle who deny that reality. This is about people who have NO perks of independent contracting and NO perks of being an employee. I've had several friends in such situations - from sleezy sketchy places, to standard practice at bug research institutions. (The d…

>>I'm aware of no union or "tax people" in my circle who deny that reality.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-workin...

>> (The down votes, fwiw, are probably not because people disagree with your political stance, lest you feel like a martyr, but from possibly intentional obtuse misrepresentation of article and issue).

I think I'll cope with the loss of imaginary internet points, and there is no obtuse misrepresentation. Clearly your reading comprehension is struggling. I said that:

>>>> There are numerous forms of wage theft, from employers not compensating workers for time worked, violating minimum wage and overtime laws, misclassifying employees as independent contractors, not providing legally required meal breaks, confiscating worker tips, or illegally taking deductions from worker wages.

>> Yeah, one of those isn't like the others. I know unions and the tax people hate it, but some people are perfectly happy to be independent contractors.

I can't think of anyone that would like to be paid less than minimum wage, or not get paid overtime for instance, but I can think of plenty of people (especially in the UK) that would have liked to have continued as independent contractors (in IT, broadcasting, lorry driving or wherever).

Often under the guise of protecting the vulnerable, over broad legislation is passed that affects more than just (EG) the Uber Eats driver.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#99

Post by Chris2048 »

dbingham wrote: post #26

One of the clearest illustrations of the deeply injust structural power imbalance at the heart of our economic system is wage theft. If your employer withholds $20 from your paycheck it's a civil violation of contract law. You have to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, you decide to pay yourself by taking $20 from the till, that's criminal theft…

That's b/c they are entirely different situations. You can't "pay yourself" taking money from the till, it isn't pay, it's just theft you justify taking from the wages you believe you are owed. You are only owed those wages on the basis of a contract, and that contract won't allow you to take anything from the till.

Theft is "the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it". Not being paid isn't the same, no matter if you try to equate the two on a numerical basis.

It would be more accurate to call "wage theft" as "labour theft". But then, labour isn't as easily stolen outside a contract. The fact is, if you aren't compensated, you can stop providing labour, and any right to a wage usually has a contract associated that can be taken to court.

Someone stealing from a till can steal potentially unlimited amounts before an employer discovers it, and there may be no record proving what is missing.

It's not great how hard it is to recover unpaid wages, but there's no injustice in theft being criminal in comparison. Also, there are circumstances that contract violations can lead to criminal charges (e.g. fraud), but in general if a valid contract is in places, penalties are not criminal (e.g. monetary).

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#100

Post by Cheer2171 »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #75
MOARDONGZPLZ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a manual labor job when I was 16 that my parents wanted me to get to build some character. A night a week or so and one shift on the weekend. The need for labor was dependent on customer demand on a given day and weather and fluctuated greatly. Practice was so show up and wait around in the break room until it was busy enough that you were needed, and then people would be called in order of arrival. So some peo…

You think the construction industry is illegal. Wait till you hear about academia!! :) This is the life today for zero-hours, at-will employment in the university sector. As a visiting professor I've had universities ask me to deliver a semester course a year in advance, and call the week before to say they're not running it. At the very minimum a 12 week course takes 40 hours of preparation even if you're just refre…

US academia has its problems, but UK academia is a whole different nightmare.
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