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Grabby Aliens (2021)

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Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#161

Post by marcosdumay »

ben_w wrote: post #109
mjevans wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure which is more practical. Diverting enough material to replicate earth's natural magnetic core system on mars into the planet, or building an artificial system. The knowledge gained from attempting either is likely valuable.

Synthetic magnetic field is much easier than messing with the planet's core. Put a relatively small power plant in the Sun-Mars L1 point, and attach to a big conductive ring: https://phys.org/news/2017-03-nasa-magnetic-shield-mars-atmo...

Fucking journalists publish an article with magnetic dipole measured in Teslas... So I go to the linked paper, and it has basically the same contents, on basically the same wording, with the magnetic dipole measured in Teslas.

It appears that at some point, somebody involved with this knew what they were doing. But we are removed so many steps from that person, that anything said there could as well be Star Trek techno-jumble. Including the conclusions.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#162

Post by johnfn »

bonzaidrinkingb wrote: post #129

This theory is itself grabby, and grabs itself at that. > Furthermore, we should believe that loud aliens exist, as that’s our most robust explanation for why humans have appeared so early in the history of the universe. But if loud aliens will soon fill the universe, and prevent new advanced life from appearing, that early deadline explains human earliness. Even furthermore, we should believe that Big Foot Medusas e…

If you yourself are a Big Foot Medusa then I would believe this logic.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#163

Post by makeworld »

bonzaidrinkingb wrote: post #129

This theory is itself grabby, and grabs itself at that. > Furthermore, we should believe that loud aliens exist, as that’s our most robust explanation for why humans have appeared so early in the history of the universe. But if loud aliens will soon fill the universe, and prevent new advanced life from appearing, that early deadline explains human earliness. Even furthermore, we should believe that Big Foot Medusas e…

> humans are the terraforming organisms put in service of the grabbies to make our planet habitable

Now there's a thought.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#164

Post by geon »

makeworld wrote: post #163
bonzaidrinkingb wrote: post #129

This theory is itself grabby, and grabs itself at that. > Furthermore, we should believe that loud aliens exist, as that’s our most robust explanation for why humans have appeared so early in the history of the universe. But if loud aliens will soon fill the universe, and prevent new advanced life from appearing, that early deadline explains human earliness. Even furthermore, we should believe that Big Foot Medusas e…

> humans are the terraforming organisms put in service of the grabbies to make our planet habitable Now there's a thought.

Or we are the descendants of a failed colony.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#165

Post by flenserboy »

Ecosystems on Earth might be a better way of thinking about this. Notice how we do not see one organism or type of organism squeeze out all the others, or work to take in all energy available to them; this is also true of human settlements, whether rural or urban. There is a clear diversity of energy extraction methods, & singular dominance (think algae-clogged lakes) tends to lead to stagnation & death. Mechanical expansion might look grabby (as in Von Neumann probes), but life expanding through the universe could instead follow biological & human-settlement patterns.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#166

Post by whizzter »

throwuwu wrote: post #144
whizzter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a huge factor you don't account for here is that some of these technological improvements might imply a great-filter that we really haven't passed yet as humans, and the negative effects would affect most similarly expansionist and competitive races alike us since it might be questionable if there would be enough pressure on a non-competitive race to expand rather than just conserve local resources. Just with…

You might want to check the physics on your assertion that a starship could take out a city. It’d have to be designed to do so otherwise it would just vaporize as it entered the atmosphere at the velocity you’d need for that kind of impact.

I haven't done any calculations (since we don't have any feasible crafts for interstellar travel that's irrelevant really), but considering it for a few minutes I'd say there's 3 increasingly likely ways around that.

1: Considering the amount of rocket fuel we need to leave earths atmosphere and reach the Moon, people have been proposing nuclear rockets to reach Mars. That's still within the solar system, reaching another star requires magnitudes more energy, even more so to accomplish enough acceleration to reach another star within a persons lifetime. Such a mode of energy generation not having an explosive failure more feels unlikely (thus making it blow up in a dock is enough).

2: Barring option 1, reaching fractional light speeds, would not a ship need enormously more capable shields than anything today to safeguard humans? The Tunguska event(3-5 mt) was at "just" 27km/s of a 50 meter object.

3: Speaking of Tunguska, even if the ship itself would lack such shields (however a human would be expected to survive w/o one), a ship capable of interstellar travel should be able to push out a rock and then accelerate it back to earth to create a Tunguska (or larger) event at a target location.

The core issue is the energy levels required(1), converting them to something destructive is usually within grasp of less intelligent people than those that research the advances that make them available.

1: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/009457...

TL;DR; quotes 10^20 joules of energy, as the article says equivalent to complete fissioning of 1000 tons of Uranium.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#167

Post by qnleigh »

yreg wrote: post #118
Towaway69 wrote: post #108

My thinking is that the universe is full with life and communicating life. However communication is only possible with the right technology. What is that technology? Technology that can only be created by a harmonious society working together to share ideas and combine ideas from everyone in a non competitive manner. In that way the universe ensures peace and harmony ensures knowing that warring civilisation aren't a…

How can a particular technology have a non-competitive harmonious society as a hard requirement for it's discovery?

If the resources required to communicate are planet-scale, then it would require comparable cooperation to build it. Maybe that gets you somewhere. And then maybe you choose to communicate in a way that requires massive resources at the receiver end too... Not a full answer to your question, but this gets you somewhere.

A more compelling answer to me is this; civilizations that don't learn how to cooperate at the scale of their planet will destroy or deplete it before they are able to build something of this scale. We have some evidence for this suggestion here on Earth...

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#168

Post by qnleigh »

pfdietz wrote: post #102
qnleigh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the argument is something like 'if life is unlikely to evolve, then it is surprising to find ourselves existing so early in the history of the universe. If life is likely to evolve, then how do we explain being apparently alone?' and then the grabby aliens theory tries to answer the second question. I don't find the argument convincing though (per my other comment)

But we are not "so early" in the history of the universe. Something like 95% of all the stars that will ever be formed have already been formed. It's actually rather late in the day.

I agree. I didn't know that statistic, but that was my impression from other things I've heard.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#169

Post by throwuwu »

iraqmtpizza wrote: post #157
throwuwu wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not silent, just not broadcasting.

[flagged]

No, I imagine them doing exactly the same thing we are: using more and more efficient methods of communication as we develop them. Compressing and encoding data, focusing our transmissions where they need to be instead of blasting at max power in all directions, using the most effective form of transmission for the purpose whether it’s laser, microwaves, specific wavelengths of radio, or hard line connections for planet side comms. Signals decay very rapidly over distance so unless you have a very good reason to build a gigantic transmitter capable of reaching beyond a few light years in all directions you’re not going to just accidentally wind up communicating with a random star 100ly away.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#170

Post by qnleigh »

ben_w wrote: post #107
qnleigh wrote: post #93

I'm confused by the argument here; is the argument that 'humanity could not arise once the universe has been taken over by grabby aliens, so a possible explanation of finding ourselves existing so early in the history of the universe is that this will be the only opportunity'? But if the universe will soon be filled with gajillions of grabby aliens, who's to say that we couldn't have been born as grabby aliens instea…

It's saying there's a good chance we'll be one of the grabby civilisations. Or at least, it doesn't rule it out. Non-grabby aliens aren't visible in this model; given the distances, "grabby" is the only way to change the environment enough for current human tech to even notice something unusual.

But if we'll become a grabby civilization, then there will presumably be at least trillions of humans born in the distant future who will live all throughout the universe. Isn't it that an extraordinary coincidence to find oneself born among the first few billion?

Incidentally, Carl Sagan used the above line of reasoning as a sign that human civilization was going to collapse before a few more doubling times.

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