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Grabby Aliens (2021)

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Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#111

Post by 8jef »

Towaway69 wrote: post #108

My thinking is that the universe is full with life and communicating life. However communication is only possible with the right technology. What is that technology? Technology that can only be created by a harmonious society working together to share ideas and combine ideas from everyone in a non competitive manner. In that way the universe ensures peace and harmony ensures knowing that warring civilisation aren't a…

The idea of global harmonious cooperation represent the main evolutionary threshold appearing before us all. This should be our future, if We all individually find enough trust in ourselves, and let us collectively evolve in such direction.

And as We, I do not foresee only human beings, but more broadly the Living, as We, interspecies from Earth. Finding a way to unite individualities should include ways to establish communication channels with so-called wildlife individuals.

The idea of considering such a path being esoteric is a way to get distrustful people on board, which may be a waste of time and resources. We should focus on uniting everyone who already think this is the new normal.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#112

Post by FrustratedMonky »

cwillu wrote: post #67
GavinB wrote: post #10

This is a compelling theory, especially the implication that humans are early. I do wonder whether we should see the evidence of spheres of growing alien influence out in the stars, but instead we see a highly uniform universe in all directions. This would indicate a few possibilities: 1. Expanding alien civilizations are relatively low impact and don't collect all of the energy of stars in ways that are visible to o…

Alas, there's a fifth possibility: 5. Controlled transportation between the stars, sufficient for colonization, is sufficiently impractical that there are no grabby aliens within our light-cone.

I think the assumption is that 'transportation' between stars will be solved by sufficiently advanced aliens/us.

BUT, that this will be one of those very difficult tasks, so it will take many thousands or millions of years.

And so goes towards 'we are early'. So, if we are grabby, and all the other grabby aliens, are all still getting over this transportation hump.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#113

Post by FrustratedMonky »

tsimionescu wrote: post #76
bqmjjx0kac wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speaking outside my area, but dark matter is not really confirmed to even exist?

It's clearly confirmed that galaxies don't obey the known laws of quantum electrodynamics (QED) + general relativity (GR) if we assume they are made entirely of Standard Model particles. So, either QED is wrong (extremely unlikely) or GR is wrong (unlikely) or there is some matter that is not in the Standard Model (plausible). Dark matter corresponds to option 3 - and there are observations that conform some models o…

Wasn't the term 'dark matter' just meant to indicate 'unknown'.

It wasn't meant to be descriptive, just that there is a gap between theories.

And one theory is there is some 'unknown' type of matter, and they called it dark.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#114

Post by [deleted] »

tshaddox wrote: post #25
delichon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The galaxy is around 100k light years across and 13 billion years old. For us to be among the first generation born within 10^5 years of each other after a gestation of 10^10 years, would make us special. Being among the first civilizations in the galaxy is less special than being the first civilization, but more special than being just another in an ongoing ecosystem.

Why is being first, or being among the first, “special”? To me “special” is different than just “specific.” If some civilization knew it was the 50th advanced civilization in the universe, 50 might seem like a very special number, but is it really more special than 1?

[deleted]

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#115

Post by yreg »

cwillu wrote: post #67
GavinB wrote: post #10

This is a compelling theory, especially the implication that humans are early. I do wonder whether we should see the evidence of spheres of growing alien influence out in the stars, but instead we see a highly uniform universe in all directions. This would indicate a few possibilities: 1. Expanding alien civilizations are relatively low impact and don't collect all of the energy of stars in ways that are visible to o…

Alas, there's a fifth possibility: 5. Controlled transportation between the stars, sufficient for colonization, is sufficiently impractical that there are no grabby aliens within our light-cone.

Even if interstellar travel is impractical, an advanced expansionist civ would be interested in building megastructures. And since there is no stealth in space (unless you can somehow mask heat), they should be observable.

Ofc there are explanations for that part of the paradox as well, but the impractical travel theory doesn't cover it.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#116

Post by FrustratedMonky »

tshaddox wrote: post #28
Arch485 wrote: post #8

I might be missing something here, but why would alien (or any) civilizations continually expand at a constant rate? While I'm not an expert, it appears that by observing life on Earth (not just humans), groups of living things do not expand linearly, and eventually hit an upper limit (this happens at all scales, from colonies of bacteria to entire civilizations). Who's to say that other "loud" aliens haven't already…

Aren’t you essentially just describing a Great Filter, which is one of the classic proposed solutions to the Fermi paradox?

I think that is mentioned in some of the materials.

This 'grabby' alien and 'light cone' discussion is explaining , or one solution to the Fermi Paradox.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#117

Post by willis936 »

pfdietz wrote: post #98
willis936 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with option 3 is that even a small drop below light speed becomes a large multiplier when looking at galactic and intergalactic distances. Let's say you can manage 0.5 c (pushing far beyond any current physical understanding of what is possible), that means we would have up to a 40,000 year heads up on an approaching galactic civilization. Even if it was 0.9c we would have up to 8,000 years notice. Even w…

Given that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, 40,000 years is nothing. The presumption that other putative galactic civilizations start at nearly exactly the same time as us is implausible, especially considering more than 9 billion years passed before the solar system even formed.

Sure, but we'd see the markers on timescales relevant to us. The gap between the light cone and actual velocity is the critical difference between a kugelblitz and an invasion: you could conceivably conceal the former but not the latter.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#118

Post by yreg »

Towaway69 wrote: post #108

My thinking is that the universe is full with life and communicating life. However communication is only possible with the right technology. What is that technology? Technology that can only be created by a harmonious society working together to share ideas and combine ideas from everyone in a non competitive manner. In that way the universe ensures peace and harmony ensures knowing that warring civilisation aren't a…

How can a particular technology have a non-competitive harmonious society as a hard requirement for it's discovery?

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#119

Post by FrustratedMonky »

XorNot wrote: post #65
cryptonector wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speed of light is a tremendous limitation. W/o FTL there's no such thing as "loud alien civilizations" that can "control 40%-50% of [the] universe['s] volume".

Rather depends on other factors though: you can perfectly well run an interstellar empire with very long communication times and people going into suspended animation for transit. Control strategy simply has to adapt accordingly: i.e. a message probably comes with a fleet sufficient to ensure its obeyed. This was one of the ideas in the Doom novelizations: that the aliens had spent so long travelling that there was l…

AI.

Instead of FTL, or FTL communication lines, or forms of suspended animation.

The ships that are sent out could be run by an AI. Maybe the ships are factory ships to self-replicate.

The Grabby could be more like Blindsight.

Re: Grabby Aliens (2021)

#120

Post by bhickey »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #113
tsimionescu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clearly confirmed that galaxies don't obey the known laws of quantum electrodynamics (QED) + general relativity (GR) if we assume they are made entirely of Standard Model particles. So, either QED is wrong (extremely unlikely) or GR is wrong (unlikely) or there is some matter that is not in the Standard Model (plausible). Dark matter corresponds to option 3 - and there are observations that conform some models o…

Wasn't the term 'dark matter' just meant to indicate 'unknown'. It wasn't meant to be descriptive, just that there is a gap between theories. And one theory is there is some 'unknown' type of matter, and they called it dark.

No. 'Dark' comes from 'dunkle' in German. It refers to non-luminous matter.
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