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Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

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Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#111

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #110
bumby wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can agree that the article is sensationalist and not particularly interesting. I personally don't get hung up on that because it's what I expect. Just like I'm not shocked when a used car dealer describes a vehicle in unscrupulous terms. It's what I expect because it aligns with their incentive structure. But note that you did your own editorializing by using the word "marginally." You've staked a claim that the r…

It is marginally; they indicators are very tiny bit too small. Regulators operate in a binary -- either something is compliant or not. Those ideas are not in conflict.

The size can be marginally different, while the impact may not be. Just like when material specs are only “marginally” lower and cause a part failure. While measurements are always continuous, failures often are not.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#113

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #111
wvenable wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is marginally; they indicators are very tiny bit too small. Regulators operate in a binary -- either something is compliant or not. Those ideas are not in conflict.

The size can be marginally different, while the impact may not be. Just like when material specs are only “marginally” lower and cause a part failure. While measurements are always continuous, failures often are not.

That's true in general. But in this specific case the impact is also continuous because it's a visual indicator.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#114

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #113
bumby wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The size can be marginally different, while the impact may not be. Just like when material specs are only “marginally” lower and cause a part failure. While measurements are always continuous, failures often are not.

That's true in general. But in this specific case the impact is also continuous because it's a visual indicator.

Right, which is why there has to be a definite threshold in the standard. Otherwise, you can just keep making it "marginally" smaller, on down until it's a single pixel, and still claim it's okay. That would mean there's no standard, and every/any UI design is equally valid. Standards exist, in part, to avoid such rules-lawyering by having a consensus on what determines a valid design.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#115

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #114
wvenable wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true in general. But in this specific case the impact is also continuous because it's a visual indicator.

Right, which is why there has to be a definite threshold in the standard. Otherwise, you can just keep making it "marginally" smaller, on down until it's a single pixel, and still claim it's okay. That would mean there's no standard, and every/any UI design is equally valid. Standards exist, in part, to avoid such rules-lawyering by having a consensus on what determines a valid design.

Of course no one is talking about making it continuously smaller. It was just one-time marginally smaller. Literally a tiny mistake. If it had been mistakenly rendered as a single pixel, someone probably would have noticed the issue internally.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#116

Post by peterisza »

falcolas wrote: post #11
tyleo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can’t believe so many words are spilled in an article over such a nothing burger… well I can believe it but it’s sad. I’m just as much of a Tesla critic as anyone I’d say but this is really a reach.

If it's become as formal as a recall, it's worth at least noting. Sure, the fix is simple (and most folks won't even notice), but Tesla was still forced into making the fix.

Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive for them to fix. They also concluded in their petition that this issue doesn't pose any risk on the driver.

Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#117

Post by peterisza »

bumby wrote: post #98
peterisza wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

software manufacturing?

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Is software prevalent in manufactured products? Certainly. Are there standards that govern their designs? Of course.

By the way, Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them.

Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#118

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #115
bumby wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is why there has to be a definite threshold in the standard. Otherwise, you can just keep making it "marginally" smaller, on down until it's a single pixel, and still claim it's okay. That would mean there's no standard, and every/any UI design is equally valid. Standards exist, in part, to avoid such rules-lawyering by having a consensus on what determines a valid design.

Of course no one is talking about making it continuously smaller. It was just one-time marginally smaller. Literally a tiny mistake. If it had been mistakenly rendered as a single pixel, someone probably would have noticed the issue internally.

That misses the point (again). The point is you need some threshold if you’re going to have a standard, or else it’s all subjective and there is no standard. So the standard is 1/8”, and you claim 15/128” is only “marginally” different so it should be allowed. There’s nothing to stop someone from claiming 7/64”, or 15/128” are also only “marginally” non-compliant. You either is or you ain’t compliant, there’s no “kinda pregnant”.

So if you think they should be safety standards, there has to be hard thresholds for compliance. And (again) the bigger issue isn’t this particular incident, it’s that it brings into question how they are managing all hard safety requirements if some apparently slip through the cracks.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#119

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #118
wvenable wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course no one is talking about making it continuously smaller. It was just one-time marginally smaller. Literally a tiny mistake. If it had been mistakenly rendered as a single pixel, someone probably would have noticed the issue internally.

That misses the point (again). The point is you need some threshold if you’re going to have a standard, or else it’s all subjective and there is no standard. So the standard is 1/8”, and you claim 15/128” is only “marginally” different so it should be allowed. There’s nothing to stop someone from claiming 7/64”, or 15/128” are also only “marginally” non-compliant. You either is or you ain’t compliant, there’s no “kin…

I never said it should be allowed. Please quote me where I said anything like that. I just said it's so minor, the fix so easy, that it doesn't demand any attention from us. The regulators told Tesla to fix it. Tesla fixed it. Most people wouldn't even notice. End of non-story.

> it’s that it brings into question how they are managing all hard safety requirements if some apparently slip through the cracks.

Again there is no evidence for that. The fact that all automakers have dozens to hundreds of recalls every year means that this one instance from Tesla is entirely meaningless.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#120

Post by peterisza »

falcolas wrote: post #21
bryanlarsen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the NHTSA did the right thing. The NY Post, on the other hand...

Do you believe NHTSA forcing Tesla to fix a safety issue is not worth calling out, in particular to TSLA shareholders? The solution to many recalls these days is a software update. Cars are becoming computers with wheels...

Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161
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