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Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

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Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#91

Post by bdcravens »

TheGlav wrote: post #41
bdcravens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but it's still important to draw attention to mistakes, for transparency and accountability. Additionally, other "recalls" for other car companies may similarly be minor software changes. The only distinguishing factor with Tesla is OTA deployment.

Sure. When was the last time that a software mistake for Windows or Mac OSX or their Phone made people think they had to take their computer to the computer shop for a session with a technician?

A Tesla is a car, not a piece of personal electronics. Different safety standards.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#92

Post by bdcravens »

wvenable wrote: post #50
bdcravens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but it's still important to draw attention to mistakes, for transparency and accountability. Additionally, other "recalls" for other car companies may similarly be minor software changes. The only distinguishing factor with Tesla is OTA deployment.

> The only distinguishing factor with Tesla is OTA deployment. Yet that's the most important factor when calling it a "recall".

Tesla themselves calls defects which can be fixed via OTA updates recalls.

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autos...

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#93

Post by peterisza »

bumby wrote: post #88
quonn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Omg, they forced Tesla. Presumably they also forced all other manufacturers to make the text the right size, whether they shipped that incorrectly or not. I don't think anyone had a choice.

The difference is that if the standards were in place before the manufacturing process, they shouldn't need to be recalled in the first place. "Forcing" means something different when standards aren't met vs. recalls related to fixes due to some non-standardized issue.

software manufacturing?

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#94

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #90
bumby wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that interpretation isn't biased by the HN audience? I would be careful overgeneralizing from the opinions on this forum. I read that initial comment as "Meh, the fix isn't a big deal," which is different than "the recall is a non-issue." Just because it's an easy fix doesn't negate the need for the fix.

It a half-a-point font-size difference is a big issue to you then we have very different ideas of what a big issue is. I'm not arguing that it isn't incorrect or that it doesn't require a fix but I would argue that the moment either one of us decided to comment it already has taken far more of our consideration and attention than it should. And it's all because of the word "Recall". > How do you know that interpretat…

If you’ve ever worked in human factors engineering, seemingly small things can make a big difference. But your comment is missing the forest for the trees IMO. The “big issue” is that Tesla missed well-established and regulated standards. It brings into question what other standardized issues fall through process gaps.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#95

Post by tzs »

wvenable wrote: post #47
throwaway-blaze wrote: post #5

We need a term other than "recall" for minor software changes. The headline makes it sound like 2.2mm vehicles are going to be scheduling service appointments to fix this.

Yeah the word "recall" means "a public call by a manufacturer for the return of a product that may be defective or contaminated" or more plainly "a call to return". If you don't have to return the item somewhere then it isn't a "recall" by definition. An over-the-air software update is not a "recall". The terminology has to change. A "recall" is a typically an inconvenient event for the owners of a product -- this ai…

No, the term recall has long been used for cases where the defect could be addressed without returning the product. For example recalls of major appliances are usually handled by the manufacturer paying to have a repairperson come and repair the appliance in the consumer's home.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#96

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #94
wvenable wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It a half-a-point font-size difference is a big issue to you then we have very different ideas of what a big issue is. I'm not arguing that it isn't incorrect or that it doesn't require a fix but I would argue that the moment either one of us decided to comment it already has taken far more of our consideration and attention than it should. And it's all because of the word "Recall". > How do you know that interpretat…

If you’ve ever worked in human factors engineering, seemingly small things can make a big difference. But your comment is missing the forest for the trees IMO. The “big issue” is that Tesla missed well-established and regulated standards. It brings into question what other standardized issues fall through process gaps.

Major car manufacturers have dozens to hundreds of recalls a year. Some serious and some as minor is a missing some pages in the manual. Tesla is by-far not the highest on the list of recalls.

Sometimes minor mistakes happen because they're minor. The assumption that this minor issue points to major issues is just not supported by the evidence.

Now that I've looked into the hundreds of recalls other manufacturers have ever yeary it makes me wonder even more why this particularly minor one is such a big issue that we are discussing it here.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#97

Post by trust_bt_verify »

caseysoftware wrote: post #45

So the "recall" is a software update changing the font size? Do we have another word to use? Also, how would a regular manufacturer approach the same problem?

Seems like recall is the best option given it is what Tesla is calling it.

My Volvo regularly gets updates OTA, if they are a ‘regular’ enough manufacturer for your definition.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#98

Post by bumby »

peterisza wrote: post #93
bumby wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that if the standards were in place before the manufacturing process, they shouldn't need to be recalled in the first place. "Forcing" means something different when standards aren't met vs. recalls related to fixes due to some non-standardized issue.

software manufacturing?

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Is software prevalent in manufactured products? Certainly. Are there standards that govern their designs? Of course.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#99

Post by bumby »

wvenable wrote: post #96
bumby wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve ever worked in human factors engineering, seemingly small things can make a big difference. But your comment is missing the forest for the trees IMO. The “big issue” is that Tesla missed well-established and regulated standards. It brings into question what other standardized issues fall through process gaps.

Major car manufacturers have dozens to hundreds of recalls a year. Some serious and some as minor is a missing some pages in the manual. Tesla is by-far not the highest on the list of recalls. Sometimes minor mistakes happen because they're minor. The assumption that this minor issue points to major issues is just not supported by the evidence. Now that I've looked into the hundreds of recalls other manufacturers hav…

Again, this misses the point. A better statement would speak to how many of those recalls pertain to well-established regulations that were not implemented by the manufacturer. I drew that distinction earlier when I wrote of recalls that relate to non-standardized issues. This was a recall about a highly standardized requirement that was not implemented. So the question is why wasn’t it implemented? Lack of competence/ignorance of the requirements? Lack of quality control? A designer unilaterally deciding the requirements didn’t matter?

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#100

Post by wvenable »

bumby wrote: post #99
wvenable wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major car manufacturers have dozens to hundreds of recalls a year. Some serious and some as minor is a missing some pages in the manual. Tesla is by-far not the highest on the list of recalls. Sometimes minor mistakes happen because they're minor. The assumption that this minor issue points to major issues is just not supported by the evidence. Now that I've looked into the hundreds of recalls other manufacturers hav…

Again, this misses the point. A better statement would speak to how many of those recalls pertain to well-established regulations that were not implemented by the manufacturer. I drew that distinction earlier when I wrote of recalls that relate to non-standardized issues. This was a recall about a highly standardized requirement that was not implemented. So the question is why wasn’t it implemented? Lack of competenc…

The vast majority of safety-related recalls across all automobiles involve seat belts, brakes, electrical components or wiring, tires, door latches, fuel pumps, and ignition switches.

The fact that you think the font-size of an indicator somehow is indicative of a larger problem makes no sense to me. We can look at actual data -- this minor thing being a "test" that they failed is just something you want be significant but isn't supported by anything.

I honestly don't know how many automobiles recalls are related to non-standardized issues in other car manufactures so what are you comparing this to? How do you know that Tesla is better or worse than other manufacturers in this way?

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