Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry • Hacker News Board

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#381

Post by el-salvador » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #151

Alifatisk wrote: post #33

I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back. I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.

On the other hand, if you're living in a street with lots of criminal activity and money laundry operations, maybe you think differently about it.

This has happened to me while living and travelling in the Northern Triangle of Central America in the 2010s which at that time were the unsafest not-at-war countries of the world.

Depending on the time of the day and location I just ran errands with only the smallest amount of cash needed and an old phone. And sometimes I kept an emergency $1 bill to pay the bus in my socks . If I was robbed, the most they could get from me was the small cash I had on hand.

As money became electronic, organized crime changed tactics, and instead of only taking money from victims, they'd take the victims to ATMs to withdraw all their funds. Banks then reacted by limiting withdrawals at about $300 in ATMs depending on the risk of the area.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#382

Post by xadhominemx » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:03 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #380

xadhominemx wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get 95% of it back in the form of rewards, so it's not really a tax at all.

It seems kind of like a scam, though, credit card rewards. I don’t know enough about it, I generally don’t like participating in those sorts of things. Do you have a ref on the 95%?

If you don't know anything about it, why would you call it a tax?

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#383

Post by xadhominemx » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:05 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #289

hhh wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use an Visa tied to an American bank every day for groceries in NL. I only have ever had issues using a card at a very small record store, I just make sure to carry 100eur in cash just in case. I do have more issues online when something only takes iDEAL though.

I'm sure you're aware of this - though others may not be: another trick US banks use is gouging you on exchange rates. My bank was charging something like a 0.5% fee visible fee and then an invisible fee several times that in exchange rate gouging. I found trying to use US banks abroad an absolutely painful experience, to the point I swapped my banking abroad which is itself a huge PITA thanks to FATCA and other stuf…

Banks all over the world make healthy margins on cross-border transactions involving a currency cross. It is not unique to American banks at all.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#384

Post by el-salvador » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:07 PM UTC

madsbuch wrote: post #264

ACS_Solver wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such robustness is currently a subject of government studies and planning. It's definitely an area of concern. A personal-level outage is a problem but less so than with cash. I have three separate items on me I can use to pay - my card holder with bank cards, my phone and my watch. That's more redundancy than with cash, which is one item (wallet). Power or network outages aren't a big issue. I've experienced those a…

For you last point regarding national level outages: I am quite sure that trains companies would instantiate emergency systems in that case – maybe just by letting people travel for free. Such an event is also not expected to last for long.

Not a natural disaster, but there's something similar happening for about 10 days in Central America.

The largest Telco was hit by ransomware and this has affected most of their systems. They are unable to receive electronic and card payments, or sell digital packages, it seems their billing, CRM and Helpdesk systems are down.

So all prepaid users are able to use the inrernet and call for free.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#385

Post by ianburrell » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #243

darrenf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus cash is just so much more convient and faster. There are many reasons I'm not anti-cash, but I am really struggling to think of a single example of this specific statement being true. Just acquiring cash at all means I have to take time out of my day, repeatedly, to make withdrawals. Then I have to carry it securely ( as well as the cards I need to get hold of more), which is annoying at the best of times and…

Cash is faster in situations where you tip. You don't need exact change, just cost of service + tip and you can walk away. I still love using cash in restaurants because the credit card dance adds 10 minutes waiting at an empty table. The server always drops off the check and runs, as if I'll need to think about the 43 dollar bill, getting them back is a whole thing, then waiting for them to return with my card and 3…

Tipping in cash requires having enough small bills to make the tip. I remember having to ask for change in small bills or break another $20 to have the right amount for tipping.

Also, the switch to chip chard should mean faster credit card payments. The server brings the terminal, you enter the tip, and then tap or dip your card. That is how it works in Europe and Canada. I hope we can avoid the printing and signing to receipt that happened when I visited London.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#386

Post by aembleton » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

Maybe the government should limit the cut that can be taken to something like 1%. All it would require is some legislation,

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#387

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

HomeDeLaPot wrote: post #299

switch007 wrote: post #128

Regarding Mr Corbyn's strawberries, if he takes them (or eats them, spoils them etc), is he not then in debt with Aldi? In which case his cash serves as payment of his debt? I guess you'd be in hot water for the prior act of stealing though

Taking something does not legally incur a debt, it's just a crime. The merchant did not agree to lend you anything, so there's no loan, so you can't pay it off with "legal tender".

[deleted]

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#388

Post by ianburrell » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

toenail wrote: post #47

darrenf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus cash is just so much more convient and faster. There are many reasons I'm not anti-cash, but I am really struggling to think of a single example of this specific statement being true. Just acquiring cash at all means I have to take time out of my day, repeatedly, to make withdrawals. Then I have to carry it securely ( as well as the cards I need to get hold of more), which is annoying at the best of times and…

> Honestly, when is cash faster? Try to give a random person $100. Can they accept credit cards? Unlikely. Do they have the random cash app installed you use? Maybe. Do they have a bank account? Depends on where you live, and it could take days, and you have to bring long numbers with you and input them into your banking app. Or simply turn off the internet.

Give them $103, where they don’t have change and you don’t have singles. Give them $337, most people don’t carry around that much. I ran into this problem recently paying contractor. I could have gotten enough cash from safe but neither of us could likely have made the exact amount.

If you choose common app like Venmo or PayPal, they likely have that installed. It is annoying to do the dance about which app to use. But the transfer is done before can get more cash. With contractor I was glad they took Venmo instead of having to write check.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#389

Post by ianburrell » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:23 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #14

It's strange that governments are not minting more digital currency if the demand for physical currency is falling.

The government doesn’t care about cash. They make a little money printing it. But are much more concerned about the state of the economy and don’t care how people are paying for things.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#390

Post by jijijijij » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 6:34 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #157

34679 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the US. There are no laws requiring businesses to do so. Why would employers spend the resources required for such a thing?

Some scenarios I hope you see as obvious: - you take out cash from an ATM. The machine is loaded with sequential or logged order of SN that can be matched to withdrawals and times. - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. - Even a small shop might have a camera at the…

You are describing the possible collection of circumstantial evidence, not systemic surveillance inherent to cash. Completely different thing than the transaction logs of electronic money transfers.

There is a reason why governments don't want large cash transactions. It enables illegal sales, tax evasion and money laundering. Dude/ette, if you think the police can track a single 20€ bill that precisely, they wouldn't have a problem seeing through 500k€ cash deals when drug money goes legit through real estate. Basically every restaurant and cafe on earth uses cash to do creative accounting.

However, of course, there are particular crimes where money tracking does matter. If you rob a bank or break into an ATM your cash prize comes with strings attached, as those known bills will get flagged. I think the most important implication would be these bills becoming actual evidence instead of an happenstance mysterious cash finding. If a bank scan finds them in circulation again, they may be able to narrow down your location, do statistics with mobile network data and so on, but it's not like every note is tracked by default at every endpoint.

Crime runs on cash. How often have you read about anyone getting caught on cash serials??

Why on earth would any commercial store invest in cash tracking? They only got one point of the cash flow, are you implying they are all connected in some grand conspiracy?? Such stores got an abundance of way more accessible and relevant customer data they could (super illegally) collect, like biometrics, RF device IDs, loyalty programs, ... I also never seen a self checkout store which accepted cash at all.

You are telling a fatalist narrative which only helps the abandonment of cash, especially for small, daily transactions, which matter most for privacy.

Crypto won't happen. Lol.