Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry • Hacker News Board

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#261

Post by fzeroracer » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:56 PM UTC

CommanderData wrote: post #233

The ability to shutdown any persons the government doesn't like using any growing list of $Excuses is worrying. Currency is a freedom to perform transaction and arguably a given right, it's existed since humans learnt trade. Cash allows anyone to transact without a prerequisite or control. Two parties. Centralised digital currency will change it. That worry doesn't even include the privacy concerns and as systems bec…

The government has always been able to shut you down. If they wanted to, they would pull you aside with no recourse and the police would execute civil forfeiture (see also: steal) against anything on your person, car or home. Cash makes this worse.

Nor does it save you from 90% of transactions you do. Banks will know when you deposit/withdraw money. Stores know the moment you walk in. Unless you deal purely in cash (and I mean PURELY) someone somewhere will know when and how you're spending your money.

If you want to deal with privacy concerns then it needs to be codified in law. And that involves dealing with the entire chain, not just point of sale and not just thinking cash will save you.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#262

Post by dazc » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:56 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #229

dazc wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money isn't instant though. People paying for such services with a cheque would do well living a few weeks in someone else's shoes.

90% of the people I'm paying are businesses. If an individual wants cash they can ask and I'll pay cash. I wouldn't just assume someone prefers everyone to be paying them in cash or screwing around with various electronic payment options that aren't super-common where I live.

OK, good to hear.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#263

Post by nonrandomstring » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:59 PM UTC

solatic wrote: post #249

nonrandomstring wrote: post #102

There are two fallacies I frequently feel the need to debunk in this discussion. - Cash is anonymous - Cash is an "old" or "low" technology. When a serious crime is committed you might be surprised how much the police can do to trace cash. Serial numbers in and out of ATMs and shops are tracked, and frequently your face is captured by cameras in stores, ATMs and vending machines. Modern cash is high technology . Look…

You're making an argument which is a variant of "if I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to hide." Privacy is a worthwhile value in and of itself, not least of which because different people have different notions of what "wrong" is and their conception of "wrong" changes over the course of their life. An example list of completely legal transactions which you might not want someone in your life knowing…

With respect, you're reading too much intent into my words. I am vehemently pro-privacy. In fact I seriously consider over-intrusive authoritarianism to be a mental health disorder and have read somewhat into the works of Adorno etc [0,1] (cue a dozen responses bemoaning how everything done at Berkeley in the 1960s is now-debunked leftist rubbish)

Part of that is helping people to have a realistic but not paranoid view of technological society. My work also means I help people who have serious crimes or security issues to solve, and have legitimate investigatory needs.

I think privacy violations are not rooted in economic greed, but in unboundaried, controlling impulses that get encoded into technology.

Hope I am responding respectfully and appropriately, sorry if I got you wrong. BTW, in a safe way (ie not online) take one of those "authoritarian personality tests". It will shock you how much we have hidden in ourselves just ready to be provoked by demagogues or disinformation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Authoritarian_Personality

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rethinking-mental-he...

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#264

Post by madsbuch » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:00 PM UTC

ACS_Solver wrote: post #256

_xivi wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't like cash and am happy to see it basically dead in the country. What would you do in case of a emergency or natural distaster? Basically a situation where any of the following is not available for any period of time: power, network, financial infrastructure, access to digital devices. 1. On personal level: Maybe your wallet and phone was stolen 2. Region: Power/Network is down 3. National level: the…

Such robustness is currently a subject of government studies and planning. It's definitely an area of concern. A personal-level outage is a problem but less so than with cash. I have three separate items on me I can use to pay - my card holder with bank cards, my phone and my watch. That's more redundancy than with cash, which is one item (wallet). Power or network outages aren't a big issue. I've experienced those a…

For you last point regarding national level outages: I am quite sure that trains companies would instantiate emergency systems in that case – maybe just by letting people travel for free. Such an event is also not expected to last for long.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#265

Post by noodlesUK » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:01 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #260

noodlesUK wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is, whilst I’m sure that cards are cheaper overall, they present a serious burden for people who can’t use them: unbanked people for various reasons, older people, children etc.

Children and old people here all use cards or apps. And derisking is illegal, so you have to provide a bank account and cards to anyone who wants. The high risk customers just need more follow-up on terms of AML.

Where are you based where derisking is illegal? Here in the UK it makes the news fairly frequently when someone notable becomes unbanked because of CIFAS or SARs or similar.

Also, I wasn’t able to get a debit card until I was 12, but perhaps that has changed over the past few decades.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#266

Post by belorn » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

ACS_Solver wrote: post #118

madsbuch wrote: post #11

I Denmark we are removing the 1000kr bill as of May 2025. from then on the highest bill. is 500kr which is roughly equal to 80 usd. Denmark Is the most cashless society I have yet experiences (and I have been traveling a fair bit). This comes with pros and cons. and I think the reason why it works is because of an incredibly high social trust.

I'm in Sweden, a strong contender for the most cashless country, and I don't know what the banknotes look like. They were changed some 5 or 6 years ago and I haven't paid with or even withdrawn cash since then. For illustration, cash is generally not accepted outside of grocery stores and some chains. For a typical restaurant, coffee shop or takeaway there's very little chance they take cash. Street vendors may take…

I share to a large degree this viewpoint that I'd rather see laws and better technology as a solution to the ever connected and tracked future that we live in. I try to use cash in Sweden since we don't have those laws yet, but replacing paper, metal and cashiers would be good if the drawbacks could be resolved.

The laws we already have do not work. A large part of Swedish intelligence policy is to trade information with partners like the US, and I would consider it extremely unlikely that highly valuable data like bank transactions was not part of that. The US intelligence policy in turn is known to use such information occasionally for commercial purposes, when it has a national impact.

The Swedish courts are also not trained to deal with low-value evidence data. There is an assumption that if data exists, it must do so because there was a reason someone deemed it worth gathering. This assumption breaks apart when data is always collected as a default, which means courts would need to be retrained when this kind of data is presented as evidence (we are slowly getting there but still very far from where I would feel safe). It also makes investigatory contexts dangerous, especially if records are part of fishing operations where single bit errors in storing, retrieving, copying and relaying records can have extreme effects. This include swish which records are very common in court hearings. In some cases it seems that only a single swish record is enough for someone to get charged with a crime, with the accused having to provide evidence to prove that they are innocent.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#267

Post by mypastself » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:03 PM UTC

yard2010 wrote: post #244

hilbert42 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Bank of England destroys between 10-30 billion pounds worth of notes per year (no longer fit for circulation)." The difference is that when BoE destroys notes they are accounted for by either the issuing of new notes and or crediting their withdrawal with a bank-entry credit thus the money in circulation does not change. Burning notes willy nilly effectively reduces the amount of currency in circulation because…

I believe he meant it's such a low number it wouldn't be relevant anyway - same as merging facebook accounts with wifey to not take that space on facebook

Yes, but e.g. even though the gravitational force exerted by my body affects you only in miniscule amounts, it’s still there.

(Miniscule until I manage to stuff my face with enough donuts.)

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#268

Post by slau » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:03 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #170

madsbuch wrote: post #11

I Denmark we are removing the 1000kr bill as of May 2025. from then on the highest bill. is 500kr which is roughly equal to 80 usd. Denmark Is the most cashless society I have yet experiences (and I have been traveling a fair bit). This comes with pros and cons. and I think the reason why it works is because of an incredibly high social trust.

Traveling from Norway 10-15 years ago Denmark was fairly backwards when it came to electronic payments.

10-15 years is also an insanely large amount of time when it comes to digitalisation.

15 years ago IE6 received its final stable release, but it would still go on to be supported for another 8 years. That’s also the same year Chrome was released, but it would take another 4 years before it overtook IE in market share.

I used cash semi regularly when I moved to Denmark nearly 10 years ago. I haven’t touched Danish currency in the last 3-4 years.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#269

Post by pasttense01 » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:04 PM UTC

svggrfgovgf wrote: post #207

Does anyone check their credit card bills or bank statements to be sure that all of the charges are valid and for the correct amount? It seems like if you use electronic payment for everything there would be a lot of items to verify. Or do you just assume there's never any errors?

I think it is common to check that all the charges are valid--since there is a lot of credit card number theft around. But I think it is uncommon to check that they are the correct amount--instead you eyeball the numbers and don't do further checking unless a charge seems unreasonable.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#270

Post by lelandfe » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 3:07 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #260

noodlesUK wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is, whilst I’m sure that cards are cheaper overall, they present a serious burden for people who can’t use them: unbanked people for various reasons, older people, children etc.

Children and old people here all use cards or apps. And derisking is illegal, so you have to provide a bank account and cards to anyone who wants. The high risk customers just need more follow-up on terms of AML.

If you’re homeless (and esp. if lacking ID), getting a bank account is a pretty tall order.