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Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#391
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't actually COVID specific. It's a nasty and frequent tactic on this forum, where someone makes strong assertions about one side of an argument whilst simultaneously claiming that the other side can't be allowed to speak because it would be "fighting", a "flamewar", a "trash fire", "not curious", "tedious" or whatever. It's an attempt to manipulate the site rules to suppress debate and is itself anti-curious.…

Hm. I think what I'm going to do instead is relentlessly flag them. Check this out. It's barely on the front page, and has just 3 comments right now. How great is this post? How much more would I rather be reading comments on this than about Bari Weiss? Infinity times more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39235484 My son is a biochemist (interviewing for grad school slots right now , as in this actual evening ,…

[flagged]

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#392
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, after asserting that someone is drastically wrong, the next few paragraphs should be about backing that claim up with convincing evidence and explanations. Instead you digressed into talking about droplets vs aerosols and forgot to even make a connection between that and the "drastically wrong" take you were replying to.

Thank you to sibling ggdG for presenting even more evidence. But I don't get your reply at all, wtallis. "the next few paragraphs should be about backing that claim up with convincing evidence and explanations" - which is what the stuff about the Diamond Princess, SARS-1 and Hong Kong was about? Evidence and explanations for why the droplet model was wrong. Do you see that? The connection is that the claim exposure a…

I think you both have made a mistake that seems all to common among people who are eager for a fight: namely, failing to recognize the distinction between someone who disagrees with your conclusion, and someone who believes your argument to be unsound.

In reply to a comment about the inverse square law, you replied with arguments about droplet vs aerosol when neither concept was mentioned in the comment you were replying to. Simply put, your argument was unsound; it lacked any connection between the concepts in your comment and the concepts in the parent comment. As written, it falls somewhere between a non-sequitur and a straw-man.

When your conclusions are correct, such unsoundness is usually easy to rectify; you've now made it at least halfway there by implying that the inverse square law applies to droplet transmission but not aerosol transmission. You now only need to reinforce that new claim with evidence to complete the originally broken chain of reasoning and have a convincing argument.

Even when you are right, you still have a responsibility to make your point using complete and coherent reasoning. I routinely downvote people whose conclusions I agree with when their explanations or justifications are clearly deficient and overreaching and don't come close to proving their point. I flag such comments when it looks like the poster is being disingenuous or displaying egregious intellectual laziness. Because discussions here are meant to be thoughtful and substantive, and you don't accomplish that by regurgitating talking points without even re-writing them to fit appropriately into the context of the discussion. Bad arguments are always bad comments for HN.

(Not having researched the droplet vs aerosol issue myself, my suspicion is that both are likely subject to distance falloff that is at least quadratic, but that the constant factors are so wildly different that effective "social distancing" for aerosol transmission would require distances that do not fit into most indoor spaces, and consequently aerosol transmission in confined indoor spaces can result in aerosol concentration becoming fairly uniform instead of maintaining a strong gradient. But that's rather more reading between the lines than you can reasonably demand from people.)

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I think what I'm going to do instead is relentlessly flag them. Check this out. It's barely on the front page, and has just 3 comments right now. How great is this post? How much more would I rather be reading comments on this than about Bari Weiss? Infinity times more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39235484 My son is a biochemist (interviewing for grad school slots right now , as in this actual evening ,…

[flagged]

It's a serious forum for a range of topics with many people contributing serious comments.

You're correct that this is not a serious COVID forum, nor a particularly serious biochem forum and that's OK.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I think what I'm going to do instead is relentlessly flag them. Check this out. It's barely on the front page, and has just 3 comments right now. How great is this post? How much more would I rather be reading comments on this than about Bari Weiss? Infinity times more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39235484 My son is a biochemist (interviewing for grad school slots right now , as in this actual evening ,…

[flagged]

Surely there is some other site where you can hear these dissenting voices loud and clear.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#395
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you keep user flags from being used as a way to squash articles on a particular topic before they have had the chance to be exposed to the wider HN community? Meaning if someone were to theoretically get a real time feed of HN submissions, and flagged articles that they didn't want seen as well as messaging a group of friends to do the same thing. Do you have protections for this type of behavior that would pr…

I just posted about that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39235382 . The relevant part is in the middle of that rather, er, wallish text, but if you read it (assuming you find it!) and have a question I didn't answer, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.

Just wanted to say thanks for the clarity of how this is handled and what to do if a submitter disagrees. Really appreciate all the work you do.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#396

Don’t the vast majority of these get removed via flags from users? Edit: I’m not asking a rhetorical question. There are a lot of comments in this thread thanking “the mods” and I didn’t realize there was a mod team cultivating the front page. Can anyone attest to this?

This is accurate, per dang's comment on the Gary Tan thread the other day: > We didn't flag the post; users did. When it comes to submissions, that's nearly always the case - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169622

Just to clarify one misunderstanding: most flags on submissions (nearly all actually) come from users, not mods. So if you see [flagged], it's almost always there because of users and in many cases the mods haven't even seen it yet.

But there are other ways besides flags for stories to fall suddenly off the front page: software penalties (e.g. the flamewar detector, a,k.a. the overheated discussion detector, various abuse detection systems, etc.) and moderation downweights. Users don't do either of those.

These points are covered in the FAQ although necessarily tersely. See "How are stories ranked?" and "What does [flagged] mean?" - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is accurate, per dang's comment on the Gary Tan thread the other day: > We didn't flag the post; users did. When it comes to submissions, that's nearly always the case - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169622

There are stories on this list that deserved to be seen, were popular, were important, and were not in fact dumpster fires in the comments - but a particular crowd with a particular bias decided to flag them. Example 1: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39142094 Example 2: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39130652 Example 3: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39214844 Does this crowd think…

> all discussion of the ICJ's decision - truly momentous - were completely removed

HN had an enormous thread about the ICJ decision:

ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39143043 - Jan 2024 (1397 comments)

The question here isn't whether the topic has been suppressed; it's how much of it HN can handle. We're willing to turn off flags from time to time, but HN is not designed for frequent repetition, especially of flamewar topics—it's designed for the opposite. That makes the question of how to handle a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) a tricky one. HN has a reasonably well-defined approach to this, which has been stable for many years:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#398
post #3

Looking at the list of removed stories makes me really happy with the moderators here. They're all sensationalist, advertising for some company, clickbait, way off topic, or some combination of above. In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. Thanks, mods.

At a quick glance, I found several that don't match that criteria you mention, here are a few: Open Source Doesn't Require Providing Builds https://codeengineered.com/blog/2024/open-source-not-builds/ Sam Altman Says AI Using Too Much Energy Will Require Breakthrough Energy Source https://futurism.com/sam-altman-energy-breakthrough Avoid Async Rust at All Cost https://blog.hugpoint.tech/avoid_async_rust.html (Perhaps…

[deleted]

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are stories on this list that deserved to be seen, were popular, were important, and were not in fact dumpster fires in the comments - but a particular crowd with a particular bias decided to flag them. Example 1: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39142094 Example 2: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39130652 Example 3: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39214844 Does this crowd think…

There are important differences between (1) These stories feel incredibly important to me now! -and- (2) Complete strangers, all over the internet, and with no official duties or obligations regarding the subjects of these stories, should be required to pay attention to them! The first one is fine. The second one suggests a somewhat immature worldview, or limited social skills.

Your comment was fine until the end, but that last sentence crosses into personal attack. Please don't do that—it just makes everything worse, and you can make your substantive points without it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked deleted thread was 90 minutes older than the thread that 'survived'. Also, it was removed within a minute of hitting the front page (if I'm reading the graphs right). Doesn't quite line up with your presumption. Any theories on why the Guardian's visual exploration of Gaza's destruction was flagged, despite positive upvotes and comments? Besides - the point is this: Not all the stories that are in OP's lis…

I think some major newspapers are 'downvoted' by default, as so many off-topic articles from them are posted. I think I read this from a comment from dang.

Yes, nearly all major media sites have a mild downweight, as do most of the tech sites that mostly recycle the same stories.

We don't ban these sites, because all of them occasionally produce solid original articles. But we downrank them because if we didn't, the frontpage would consist of little else—and many readers still feel they're over-represented, even with the downranking.

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