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Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#181

Post by _Algernon_ »

verticalscaler wrote: post #146
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories about COVID controversies are almost certainly getting flagged off the front page by users, not touched by mods. People look at the titles of these stories and think that's all flaggers are going by, but lots of people flag stories based on their experience of what the threads are like, and the threads on COVID controversies are fucking dreadful. I didn't flag (or see) that story, but I would have.

But why must they be dreadful? Genuine question, I am not being obtuse. We should be able as a community to discuss conterversial subjects somehow. I also think this sort of thing invites flag brigades. Or better yet, a small batch of bad actor can easily start brigading and forcefully associate such flamewar expectations with any subject they don't like to drive it off HN. Maybe worth reconsidering how you flag? You…

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#182

Post by throwaway665544 »

Zak wrote: post #80
TheCoreh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a quick glance, I found several that don't match that criteria you mention, here are a few: Open Source Doesn't Require Providing Builds https://codeengineered.com/blog/2024/open-source-not-builds/ Sam Altman Says AI Using Too Much Energy Will Require Breakthrough Energy Source https://futurism.com/sam-altman-energy-breakthrough Avoid Async Rust at All Cost https://blog.hugpoint.tech/avoid_async_rust.html (Perhaps…

Two out of three currently aren't removed. There's no moderator comment on the third, but a fair number of upvotes and user comments; I think it was flagged by users. Open Source Doesn't Require Providing Builds https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39094387 Sam Altman Says AI Using Too Much Energy Will Require Breakthrough Energy Source https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39095738 Avoid Async Rust at All Cost (flagg…

HN is a leftist echo chamber, so “flagged by users” is still a relevant and interesting metric here (that I think would also prove my point).

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#183

Post by verticalscaler »

tptacek wrote: post #176
verticalscaler wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why must they be dreadful? Genuine question, I am not being obtuse. We should be able as a community to discuss conterversial subjects somehow. I also think this sort of thing invites flag brigades. Or better yet, a small batch of bad actor can easily start brigading and forcefully associate such flamewar expectations with any subject they don't like to drive it off HN. Maybe worth reconsidering how you flag? You…

I don't know why they're dreadful, but they empirically are, and that's the end of the matter for me.

I think this sort of thing taken to the limit will cut every which way until eventually we run out of subjects and the overton window shrinks into an overton dot.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#184

Post by mandmandam »

lolinder wrote: post #129
next_xibalba wrote: post #29

Don’t the vast majority of these get removed via flags from users? Edit: I’m not asking a rhetorical question. There are a lot of comments in this thread thanking “the mods” and I didn’t realize there was a mod team cultivating the front page. Can anyone attest to this?

This is accurate, per dang's comment on the Gary Tan thread the other day: > We didn't flag the post; users did. When it comes to submissions, that's nearly always the case - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169622

There are stories on this list that deserved to be seen, were popular, were important, and were not in fact dumpster fires in the comments - but a particular crowd with a particular bias decided to flag them.

Example 1: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39142094

Example 2: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39130652

Example 3: https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=39214844

Does this crowd think it's cool and normal that all discussion of the ICJ's decision - truly momentous - were completely removed, based on the opinion of a dedicated minority?

US tech giants are heavily implicated in this, so no one can seriously argue the topic isn't relevant. A World War could come from these "plausibly genocidal" actions, which are enabled in various ways by US tech giants.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#185

Post by ESTheComposer »

nottorp wrote: post #81
jjackson5324 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The corpse of blockchain would like to have a word with you :)

Yes the corpse that just got approved for a BTC ETF with an ETH ETF on the way and with multiple companies winning lawsuits against the SEC. But sure, because it's not on HN anymore it's a corpse.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#186

Post by Culonavirus »

dang wrote: post #133

> The assumption is that a Story cannot go from the top 30 to a position higher than 90 in a single minute, without having been explicitly removed. That's wrong. Both the flamewar detector (a.k.a. the overheated discussion detector) and user flags do that, and there are other software mechanisms that do it too. For example, if a story has been on the front page for more than (IIRC) 18 hours, it gets an automatic down…

> keep in mind that user flags affect a submission's rank long before the [flagged] marker appears

What kinds of user flags are there and why are they not public? People should know. Shadowbanning belongs in the 2010s.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#187

Post by LordDragonfang »

fakedang wrote: post #153
lolinder wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these are is evidence of your parent comment's point that this isn't direct moderator action, rather a combination of algorithms and user flags. Most likely, people flagged the Germany story because it has a sensational title and they likely aren't from Germany and so wouldn't have context to know whether it's overblown. I'm confident that Vx.dev got flagged by a bunch of people because they're tired of LLM stor…

There ought to be a time-based flagging limit, so that people don't abuse the system. I've already raised this earlier. If Company A makes a killer product announcement, rival Company B could simply get its employees to spam down votes on and flag that post. Company A gets less visibility, and dang won't be able to come on time to stop it. This is an easily plausible hypothetical, which may already be happening.

Flagging requires high HN karma. You get that by being a positive member of the community. Most such people, if a company even has one, would find it against their personal ethics to do that. And dang can see the karma ratio and unflag any actually worthwhile announcements.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#188

Post by next_xibalba »

wolverine876 wrote: post #91
next_xibalba wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the impression from that article that Daniel and Scott are curating the front page in the way the thanks in this thread suggest. I am still of the impression that the front page composition is decided by upvotes, downvotes, and flags. Contrary to the implication in this repos’ text.

What is that impression based on?

The article, the HN's guidelines and FAQ, Dang's accumulated comments, etc.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#189

Post by smaudet »

sfink wrote: post #164
smaudet wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh? I'm not pretending digital coins or dubious "tokens" were all particularly useful, but crypto (in the sense of cryptography) has been around for decades and is definitely here to stay... The people who made coins and tokens bad for society are doing the same thing with GenAI... Both are useful and both come with huge problems. Neither one is some panacea or a sustainable get-rich-quick scheme (obviously, both peo…

> but crypto (in the sense of cryptography) has been around for decades and is definitely here to stay... But that's not the sense under discussion. "Crypto"=cryptography lost the language war and was completely supplanted by "crypto"=cryptocurrency. I really wish the word could regain its original and useful meaning, but it's too late now. Ironically, "I work in crypto" went from meaning something useful to society…

> "Crypto"=cryptography lost the language war and was completely supplanted by "crypto"=cryptocurrency.

On the timescale of the past 4-5 years, you are correct about the popular usage.

However, if cryptocurrency continues to recede from the public eye, then in another 4-5 years I think "crypto" will no longer mean "cryptocurrency".

Understanding both the current lexicon and the "archaic" and "recently archaic" uses of the term I hold is both useful and pertinent to being able to communicate effectively. Which is why I immediately clarified, I'm talking about the 40+ year definition of the term, not the current whimsical linguistic fad.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#190

Post by karaterobot »

goles wrote: post #70
ryandrake wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I suspect a sizable number of people use "flag" as a mega-downvote for things they passionately don't like, rather than for policy violations and spam.

For anyone that is concerned about over flagging, please consider turning on showdead and vouching responsibly! If as many people thoughtfully vouched as maliciously flagged it may be less of an issue.

Wait, how do you vouch for something that has been flagged? I don't see that option, even with showdead turned on.
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