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Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#341

Post by falsandtru »

dang wrote: post #330
falsandtru wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several low-point, long-lived but highly ranked unnatural posts on the top page that appear to be manipulated. Such unnaturalness and opacity make users feel that the ranking is arbitrary and unfair, even if for good reasons. Can you display the manipulation that has been done on the ranking and other lists per post? For example, a reset of the submission time should be easily displayed.

> There are several low-point, long-lived but highly ranked unnatural posts on the top page that appear to be manipulated. Which are they? It's important to include links so that (a) we can say what's going on, and (b) so readers can make up their own minds. You might be talking about stories that went in to the second-chance pool ( https://news.ycombinator.com/pool , explained at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

If you don't know it could be a bug. Next time I find it, I will report it.

I have heard that sometimes the submission time is reset, such as when returning from the second chance pool. This could also create an unnatural ranking order, so the original time before the reset should be listed as well.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#342

Post by [deleted] »

dang wrote: post #133

> The assumption is that a Story cannot go from the top 30 to a position higher than 90 in a single minute, without having been explicitly removed. That's wrong. Both the flamewar detector (a.k.a. the overheated discussion detector) and user flags do that, and there are other software mechanisms that do it too. For example, if a story has been on the front page for more than (IIRC) 18 hours, it gets an automatic down…

[deleted]

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#343

Post by [deleted] »

nkurz wrote: post #322
elpocko wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "force" is actually one or two people. It's hard to prove and impossible to change. No one will believe you, either.

Could you make your accusation more clearly? Are you saying it's 'dang' and 'pg'? One or two regular users abusing the flagging system? Or a couple dark and shadowy figures who have no public presence?

[deleted]

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#344

Post by felixgallo »

ggdG wrote: post #314
felixgallo wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, you're not even wrong. The six foot rule was based on what the best understanding of the experts was at the time, and probably saved thousands of lives. Just like forced masking up probably saved tens of thousands of lives. Both were great examples of science, which readily admits to tuning when new evidence comes into play. However, because there's a right wing cult around Donald Trump, whose fortunes…

>The six foot rule was based on what the best understanding of the experts was at the time, and probably saved thousands of lives. You can't just make up the beneficial effects of something as you go. Can you cite some randomized controlled trials that support your claim? >Just like forced masking up probably saved tens of thousands of lives. One year ago, a huge Cochrane meta-analysis of the available RCTs regarding…

literally quoting from that meta-analysis, which does not include many clinical trials that have demonstrated an impact:

"Key messages We are uncertain whether wearing masks or N95/P2 respirators helps to slow the spread of respiratory viruses based on the studies we assessed."

Example very large study published in a reputable journal: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abi9069?cookieSe...

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#345

Post by bradly »

dang wrote: post #115
mrcwinn wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garry Tan seems to benefit from this system as well. Nothing sensationalist about tracking his awful behavior.

We haven't touched those stories except reduce the penalties on them (user flags mostly) and moderate them less than we normally would (per https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... ). I put one back on the front page last night despite this contradicting every principle HN stands for—every other principle, that is, than the first one, which is that we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC…

@dang Thank you for the info.

One questions I do have–I would guess posts critical of HN/YC are going to get a log of flags and have not the best discussion. This has a side affect of biasing the home page to not have posts critical of HN/YC. Do you see this as a problem?

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#346

Post by Jun8 »

falsandtru wrote: post #316
dang wrote: post #139

I don't have a problem with users building things like this because the principles by which HN works are all easy enough to explain and defend—just remember that anything this complex is inevitably a mess, so you need to have high tolerance for messiness if you want to understand it accurately. However, it's important to correct inaccuracies like the one mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39231537 .…

There are several low-point, long-lived but highly ranked unnatural posts on the top page that appear to be manipulated. Such unnaturalness and opacity make users feel that the ranking is arbitrary and unfair, even if for good reasons. Can you display the manipulation that has been done on the ranking and other lists per post? For example, a reset of the submission time should be easily displayed.

I use the downvote button for two reasons: overwhelmingly for rude, come-uppance, and similar type of comments; very rarely for comments spreading FUD for no particular reason. I just downvoted your comment for the second reason.

Demanding transparency is fine but you’ve got to provide proof with your claims. If there are stories which feel manipulated to you link them and let the audience see, maybe you’re right.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#347

Post by mvdtnz »

fragmede wrote: post #227
mvdtnz wrote: post #37

I wrote a program that tracked the changes in story titles on Hacker News a while ago. Some of them were really quite strange. I can't understand some of the policies, like why the words "How" and "Why" are stripped from the front of titles (eg "How I rewrote my app" would be changed to "I rewrote my app"). Some very small proportion of the title changes could definitely have been construed as politically motivated b…

did you write up your findings anywhere? I'd love to read about them!

I didn't, mainly because the findings were so mundane! I still have the data, so perhaps I will some day.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#348

Post by 23B1 »

nullindividual wrote: post #304
23B1 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if its a right-wing talking point and I don't care if a company has given themselves permission to censor themselves. My interest is broadly about the attitudes towards speech as they continue to be shaped by corporations who continue to privatize the public square. See Taibbi's 'Twitter Files' for ample examples.

Users are privatizing the 'public square'. We come to HN by choice. I'm sure others use Twitter by choice. And users subject themselves to the TOS by choice. This is definitely one of those 'if you don't like it, build (or buy) it'. It has worked out disastrously in the conservative realm so far, but perhaps you have better ideas.

"If you don't like it, build your own" is another bad-faith lie told by those who love censorship culture.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#350

Post by dang »

falsandtru wrote: post #341
dang wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are several low-point, long-lived but highly ranked unnatural posts on the top page that appear to be manipulated. Which are they? It's important to include links so that (a) we can say what's going on, and (b) so readers can make up their own minds. You might be talking about stories that went in to the second-chance pool ( https://news.ycombinator.com/pool , explained at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

If you don't know it could be a bug. Next time I find it, I will report it. I have heard that sometimes the submission time is reset, such as when returning from the second chance pool. This could also create an unnatural ranking order, so the original time before the reset should be listed as well.

It could certainly be a bug! but it could also be a lot of other things.

Yes, the timestamp munging is an artifact of HN's re-upping system, described at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 and links back from there. About the timestamps, there are past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

The original times are always available because the modified time is used only on the frontpage and the article's /item page. If you find the article on /from or /submitted, for example, the timestamp will be the original. The two timestamps converge over time.

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