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Why flying insects gather at artificial light

nature.com

131–140 of 183 posts

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#131
post #115

One fun thing to do with a swarm of bug near a light is to take out your keys and shake them. Keys will often ring in the ultrasonic and poorly mimic the frequencies that a lot of bats use. If you have a population of bats that hunt near you, the bugs will typically just drop. Like, just drop to the ground as fast as they can. They know the sound of hunting bats and your keys may be just close enough to that sound th…

Interesting, I heard a story once that you can catch bats with keys: Put a bunch of keys in a sock and throw that in the air. If there is a bat near enough it might dive for and grab the object, then it gets drawn to the ground because the keys are too heavy. There you can catch it if you are quick. Might be an urban myth, though it seems like it might just work.

Seems like a great way to get rabies.

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#132
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're likely describing citizen science and engineering That's what you are describing. If you read my comments, I am not talking about that (though I don't object to it), and my main point is that science is not defined by the type of work that gets published in journals, or by whatever qualifies as 'citizen science'.

I read all your comments carefully, in detail, before responding. Can you give us some examples of what you mean? I'm struggling to see how somebody on their own could come up with a non-trivial scientific result that was meaningful in any way.

> I'm struggling to see how somebody on their own could come up with a non-trivial scientific result that was meaningful in any way.

This is a very dominant attitude but that in itself gives guidance for more alternatives than there would be otherwise.

Naturally some people are better prepared and/or more promising on their own than others having the overwhelming support and encouragement of an established institution.

It's just plain "Nature" after all, naturally.

A certain number of the very most promising individuals are simply not ready for an institution.

That's just plain statistics.

Sometimes the individual themself is not suitable for institutionalization, other times the institution is not suitable for the individual.

>Can you give us some examples of what you mean?

ASTM contains some of the most repeatable & reproducible science published. Repeatability & Reproducibility statements are required before the vast majority of material will even be considered for publication. Mainly a committee of leading scientists will carefully conduct the proposed procedures in all of their individual laboratories, before using the data to arrive at an agreed-upon consensus. This has always been a significant effort that would be impossible without highly co-ordinated dispersed team effort. But that's just the publication. Now to some people almost everything in ASTM will always be considered more reliable on the whole than the bulk of everything in Nature, for others it's vice versa. To each his own, I would consider both publications to be equally prestigious even though ASTM almost never names contributors in the pages of its volumes. ASTM scientists participate on a volunteer basis anyway. Publication wouldn't be possible without the bureaucracy, but so many of the actual proven scientific ASTM procedures were completely originated by individuals whether or not they were working in their home institution basically alone, or using their own resources in the equivalent of their own "home".

With the dangerous chemicals I worked with, I always recommended "don't try this at home" myself.

Regardless, some of the most outstanding scientific minds and experimentalists just aren't going to limit themsleves to what is recommended no matter what you say.

But that's besides the point, IIRC since I was a toddler, publication is over-rated.

Plus there are more kinds of industrious people than there are institutions or industries to accept them.

Any attitude which reduces acceptance further can only be expected to reduce chances for overall scientic progress proportionally.

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#133
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong: I think you are right, and I should try it myself. But I was hoping to maybe get some insights from somebody in the field. I have actually been looking for literature about that, and I don't know (maybe I missed a lot) but it did not really feel like there was a definitive answer to that.

> ... I should try it myself. But I was hoping to maybe get some insights from somebody in the field. Yes, of course. Please don't mistake my enthusiasm for some imperative or criticism. I was just taking the opportunity to make a point in HN generally. I look up the existing literature all the time. What a waste of all that effort otherwise!

As we used to say, 6 months in the laboratory can sometimes save you hours in the library.

The most ambitious did both at the same time.

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I was hoping for something more scientific. What is more scientific than testing the hypothesis yourself? That's science; that's its essential joy and spirit and nature. Have you reckon'd a thousand acres much? have you reckon'd the earth much? Have you practis'd so long to learn to read? Have you felt so proud to get at the meaning of poems? Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of…

Who wrote that? 100% behind it. Thanks for sharing

Nobody well-known any more.

Probably have to dig through the "literature" ;)

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#135
post #115

One fun thing to do with a swarm of bug near a light is to take out your keys and shake them. Keys will often ring in the ultrasonic and poorly mimic the frequencies that a lot of bats use. If you have a population of bats that hunt near you, the bugs will typically just drop. Like, just drop to the ground as fast as they can. They know the sound of hunting bats and your keys may be just close enough to that sound th…

Interesting, I heard a story once that you can catch bats with keys: Put a bunch of keys in a sock and throw that in the air. If there is a bat near enough it might dive for and grab the object, then it gets drawn to the ground because the keys are too heavy. There you can catch it if you are quick. Might be an urban myth, though it seems like it might just work.

Camping in Lassen area of Northern California as a kid, I would tease the bats by throwing a ball of tinfoil in the air. The bats would chase it.

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#136
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I was hoping for something more scientific. What is more scientific than testing the hypothesis yourself? That's science; that's its essential joy and spirit and nature. Have you reckon'd a thousand acres much? have you reckon'd the earth much? Have you practis'd so long to learn to read? Have you felt so proud to get at the meaning of poems? Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of…

The first step of any scientific study is a lit review, so reading is still science. :)

>reading is still science. :)

Umm, no.

Reading is still research.

Time spent reading may lead directly to more science, but it's not always the most prominent path, plus you have to put down the books occasionally and get into action or the research will stagnate because of a thing called no progress whatsoever.

Science is the part that may lead to future publications. Maybe, maybe not.

Often best conducted with the hands, eyes and mind not overly bound or preoccupied with materials previously published.

Remember the default, especially in hard science, is no progress whatsoever, with gradual loss of technology developed during previous lifetimes.

So reading can be most essential to keep previous progress from being forgotten or lost completely.

I say don't stop reading altogether but get into action as much as possible.

-note not my downvote, corrective upvote actually

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#137
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you have no sources and you can be full of it. But following the scientific method, I’ll try your hypothesis next chance I have! :D

If this turns out to not be true, and just said for the amusement of thinking of all the people jiggling their keys at insects, it reminds me of something a friend in high-school said to me: "If you peel a banana, take a bite off the top, and then poke your index finger in to the middle of it, it will split in to perfect thirds". Upon trying this, I discovered it was not true, and my friend just wanted to see me stic…

Ha, no way!

All this time I thought this was him being silly!

(For the record, the banana did NOT split nicely)

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#138
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this turns out to not be true, and just said for the amusement of thinking of all the people jiggling their keys at insects, it reminds me of something a friend in high-school said to me: "If you peel a banana, take a bite off the top, and then poke your index finger in to the middle of it, it will split in to perfect thirds". Upon trying this, I discovered it was not true, and my friend just wanted to see me stic…

I never tried (yet) but a quick search reveals a lot of people filming the "banana split in thirds" action, e.g. https://youtu.be/NoGXTXsamt4?si=ANNTdtcu1trOdQXP It's still technically possible it's a hoax but, boy, that's a lot of effort to provide fake content to support the hoax.

?t=40s

Nice. Maybe GP got the wrong end, or it is a test of ripeness, or perhaps 'bite off the end' ruined it (it at least didn't seem to be necessary in the linked video).

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#139
post #130
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I heard a story once that you can catch bats with keys: Put a bunch of keys in a sock and throw that in the air. If there is a bat near enough it might dive for and grab the object, then it gets drawn to the ground because the keys are too heavy. There you can catch it if you are quick. Might be an urban myth, though it seems like it might just work.

Note that depending on your area this might be illegal. In France for example, bats are a protected species and it’s forbidden to kill or capture them.

Also depending on your area, there's a chance the bat may scratch you without you realizing it, and a few months or years later, you suddenly go mad and die in agony.

At least I'm more scared of rabies than any government fine. By the time you know something is wrong, you're already a corpse that's about to remember to stop moving.

Re: Why flying insects gather at artificial light

#140
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flies easily fly through the window if it's substantially brighter than the room.

Not in my experience. The walls were dark. And the window was bright occupying half of the surface of one wall. They still flew in circles. I think it might be what other commenters are pointing out. That flies consider the brightest direction to be the sky, but if it's to the side (with respect to gravity) it messes up their navigation.

I wonder now, do flies ever venture inside of caves?
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