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Safetyism killed playtime

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Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#131

Post by giantg2 »

acdha wrote: post #109
giantg2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world." This isn't really true. Most other developed nations have much stricter licensing with much lower fatality rates. Yes, enforcement is definitely an issue too. Progress penalties and fines tied to income levels (or vehicle values) would be a good start.

It is really true. There are various causes being debated but we’re the only rich country where the fatality rate is moving in the wrong direction: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage... The source article covers why some of the theories can’t explain the difference on their own: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-death...

I can't read your pay walled article.

"It is really true. There are various causes being debated but we’re the only rich country where the fatality rate is moving in the wrong direction:"

I'm not sure we're on the same page with what I'm taking issue with. The requirements to get a license are a joke in the US. The other nations with lower fatalities have stricter licensing. Yes, it won't explain it on it's own, but it is highly correlated and supported by studies around stricter licensing in other nations and graduated licensing in the US.

But your claim that if education worked the stats wouldn't be going up has no basis in anything you've posted. The overall licensing has not improved in the US. The jurisdictions in your chart have much stricter requirements.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#132

Post by Supermancho »

freitzkriesler2 wrote: post #37
acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

Your memory must be bad because I remember cars driving down my suburban street at highway speeds in the mid 90s. The lesson imparted as a kid was to always look both ways, assume no one sees you, and get in and out quickly. If you haven’t taught your kids to not impulsively run after balls into streets, that’s on you. Even my 3 year old knows better than to walk into a street after a ball. I literally watched him st…

As little troublemakers in California, a friend and I used to play a prank. We would stand next to light poles on opposing sides of a neighborhood street, at dusk, pretending to pull an invisible line between us. The faster a car would drive through, the farther we would throw ourselves onto nearby lawns. Some of the cars were VERY fast (50mph) despite the short runway from the corner, a few houses down.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#133

Post by King1st »

acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

Crazy new drivers have always been around. you probably just live in a more populated area now. I remember People ripping down my roads in the 90s.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#134

Post by danaris »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #16

I don't think I get the point. Creative, unstructured play and safety aren't mutually exclusive. A kid doesn't need to get a third degree burn or break an arm to "play better", and those are mostly avoidable risks. The article also missed on developing this piece of information: > In urbanised environments, where land is at an all-time premium, finding a place to run around can be a challenge. One in eight children d…

> Creative, unstructured play and safety aren't mutually exclusive.

I think what you're missing is the difference between "safety" and "safetyism".

The latter is largely an unscientific and unhealthy focus on eliminating any possible risk (at least, of the types that the person in question can easily envision), regardless of the cost to the activities.

As an elder millennial, I have seen the explosion of this mindset during my lifetime. It's why I, when I was 5 years old, was able to regularly play with friends from down the street with no adult supervision (with the consequence being occasional skinned knees and scraped elbows, and the one memorable evening when my little brother had to be given ipecac because he ate—more or less at the urging of the rest of us—a plant that turned out to be perfectly harmless, but couldn't be positively identified by any of us in time to be sure of that)...but today, in many parts of the US, if someone sees an unattended child under the age of 16, they might call the police, and the parents might actually get arrested for child endangerment.

Not because there was any clear and present danger. Just because the child was not being monitored 24/7.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#135

Post by Atheros »

eitally wrote: post #84

A lot of this has to do with parents' choices. Specifically, choices in where to live and how to raise their kids. It's still plenty possible to enable free, and free-ish playtime in the US, but teaching kids to respect risk has to begin young. I live in a top 10 city -- San Jose -- with crazy commute traffic up and down the peninsula. But we chose to raise our kids on a two block long street with a church at one end…

There are people in this very thread who bought houses in obviously crappy neighborhoods complaining about their crappy neighborhoods.

There are some neighborhoods where walking down the street comes with an especially notable risk of getting robbed. That's a bad neighborhood. Everyone agrees.

There are other neighborhoods where playing in a park comes with an especially notable risk of Karen calling the police, who respond. That's a bad neighborhood too.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#136

Post by rurp »

magicmicah85 wrote: post #62

My own personal experience. We made the mistake of buying a suburban town home next to a state highway with an HOA. At the time it seemed great but as our kids got older, they wanted to play outside. We’d get letters from the HOA about the kids playing in the street and how that wasn’t allowed cause of the bylaws. We ignored them and let them continue to do what they want. One time a board member tried yelling at the…

I'm glad you mentioned HOAs since I think that they are an underappreciated source of the stultifying blandness affecting modern suburbia.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#138

Post by nottorp »

alephnerd wrote: post #35

Getting a massive "Old man yells at sky" vibe in this thread (and HN in general). Safety laws are written in blood. Whenever a new regulation is passed, it is often in reaction to some horrendous accident. A lot of the comments below are of Boomers who played with unsafe toys or took risks, but they also had some limited supervision from at least one parent. In 2023, both parents are working, so supervision is much m…

Supervision? My parents had absolutely no idea where I played. Except that I was probably 1km away or less...

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#139

Post by cooper_ganglia »

giantg2 wrote: post #105
cooper_ganglia wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he was arrested for his 4th DUI, his license had been suspended. Because of this, his dad bought him a car so he could get around (doesn't make sense to me either, haha). So he had a suspended license, no insurance, he was drunk, and driving 100+ MPH down an empty country road when he was arrested. I know all this because I bought his car from his mom, and I'd drive him to work from the jail on Mondays and Tuesd…

"There should be no work release," I would say that about half of the people in county who had a job and didn't lose it get work release. That's not specific to DUI. My main point is he provided fake documents about landscaping. That should have been reported. "If you voluntarily risk the lives of others on the road, you give up 5 years of your own life if you're caught. I think that's exceedingly fair." I think the…

These are fair points, but I personally still want more punishment. I'll admit I probably don't have the clearest mindset when considering these things either, because I've had too many people around me injured, paralyzed, or killed because of drunk drivers. I'm at the point where I am literally incapable of feeling any level of empathy for anyone who voluntarily drinks and then gets behind the wheel because of how much it's affected my life, directly and indirectly.

My grandparents, my high school girlfriend, another girlfriend just a couple years ago, my best friend's brother, a coworker, 2 great uncles... All people in my life who were either injured or killed by a drunk driver. Hell, one of my uncles was literally run over outside of his car by a drunk driver. He survived but lost his leg, and he couldn't ever breathe right after the accident...

That's not to mention all the indirect drunk-driving deaths that I've dealt with via mourning friends and family. It's very difficult not to be incredibly calloused at something that is so, so destructive and yet so, so easy to prevent. Like, literally if you had just called an Uber my friend would still be alive, I'm sure glad that you saved $20!

...Y'know? No easy answers, at this point I'm just venting a little bit. :) Thanks for the response and for reading my spiel!

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#140

Post by 303uru »

acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

I live in Denver proper. And there are three middle aged men in pickups that essentially terrorize the neighborhood in their lifted Ram pickups. Constantly doing 45+ in a 20, if a car tries to park or pull into a driveway they curb hop and freak out. Cops refuse to do a thing about it, probably because they're clearly on the same team (white, male, wraparound Oakleys, tan hoodies with flags on the shoulder, gun stickers on the truck, etc...). But I'd be insane to let my girls run free in the neighborhood with that threat. I'm a competent cyclist and I've nearly been killed by two of them.
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