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Safetyism killed playtime

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Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#101

Post by Apocryphon »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #88
gosub100 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boo boos are fine, but what about medical costs? Thats a component that I hear nobody talk about with safetyism. Can you imagine what a $15-20k bill for a broken arm (ambulance, ER, surgery, medication, follow-up visits) does to a middle or lower-class family? This a major factor to why people sue, because they can't afford these kinds of boo-boos.

Average out-of-pocket cost for a broken bone is $2,500. Certainly not nothing, but kids don't break a bone every month or probably even every year, so it doesn't seem like too wild of a number in the long run. You can extrapolate this further. Why would I allow my 15 year old to start driving? What if she gets into a car accident, and I have to... shudder ... pay her medical bills? I think the potential monetary liab…

As with so many issues in modern America, guaranteed health care could help. A vigorous social safety net would deter safetyism, an incorrect preemptive optimization.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#102

Post by giantg2 »

torstenvl wrote: post #96
giantg2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"licenses do need to be easy to get" This is what allows the situation we have. People either don't get caught, or only get caught after injury has occurred. "traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are." It depends on the infection. Many are already severe, such as being arrested for racing, going 25+ over the limit, DUI, etc. DUI is a factor in about a 3rd of fatalities and is al…

Going 15mph over is a crime in a lot of states (like NC), which is bonkers. By contrast, DUI is not nearly severe enough. It should only be a misdemeanor if it's <= .10. Anything over .10 should be a felony.

In my mind, just increasing penalties will have little effect (except excluding more people from society adding an overall drag). They need to do better at educating to avoid it.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#103

Post by ethanbond »

giantg2 wrote: post #102
torstenvl wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going 15mph over is a crime in a lot of states (like NC), which is bonkers. By contrast, DUI is not nearly severe enough. It should only be a misdemeanor if it's <= .10. Anything over .10 should be a felony.

In my mind, just increasing penalties will have little effect (except excluding more people from society adding an overall drag). They need to do better at educating to avoid it.

What on earth does "educating" mean in this context?

Do people not know how to read a speedometer? Do they not know how to read a speed limit sign?

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#104

Post by ethanbond »

marcosdumay wrote: post #82
ethanbond wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are. In the US, licenses do need to be easy to get otherwise you lock people out of society (unfortunately), but they don't need to be easy to keep and you should drive with constant awareness that you will be taken to the cleaners for mishaps. Automated enforcement tech should be widespread and incur license revocations and salary/wealth…

That won't get you anywhere. If you require cars, you'll get misbehaving cars, as they come in no other format. What fixes this is creating collective transportation. Multimodal and capillary transportation options that people can use. And after that, you just phase cars outside of the city.

Obviously not true. There are gradations of strictness in driving behavior. Driving in Germany, for example, is a totally totally different experience from anywhere in the US.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#105

Post by giantg2 »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #99
giantg2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some states are more strict than other. That seems extremely lenient. They are generally misdemeanors or felonies that would cause many people to lose their jobs. Your part about faking work release is really a separate issue - did you report them? Most states will not issue you a license if you have multiple DUIs. So he should have been on a suspended license, which should have drastically increased the penalty in m…

When he was arrested for his 4th DUI, his license had been suspended. Because of this, his dad bought him a car so he could get around (doesn't make sense to me either, haha). So he had a suspended license, no insurance, he was drunk, and driving 100+ MPH down an empty country road when he was arrested. I know all this because I bought his car from his mom, and I'd drive him to work from the jail on Mondays and Tuesd…

"There should be no work release,"

I would say that about half of the people in county who had a job and didn't lose it get work release. That's not specific to DUI.

My main point is he provided fake documents about landscaping. That should have been reported.

"If you voluntarily risk the lives of others on the road, you give up 5 years of your own life if you're caught. I think that's exceedingly fair."

I think the system most states have in place is fair today - usually one diversionary program with probation, fine/costs, interlock, etc if nobody was hurt and there was no property damage. Penalty tiers based on BAC level. Progressive sentencing based on details like not your first time, someone got hurt, property damage, etc.

Plenty of things depend on the outcome for the severity of the punishment. I do think that is fair to increase penalties based on the circumstances and results. What we really need is better education. Although stricter penalties or education aren't going to help people like the guy you say thinks his life is unfair. Perhaps rehab as his attitude sounds like an alcoholic.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#106

Post by nottorp »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #88
gosub100 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boo boos are fine, but what about medical costs? Thats a component that I hear nobody talk about with safetyism. Can you imagine what a $15-20k bill for a broken arm (ambulance, ER, surgery, medication, follow-up visits) does to a middle or lower-class family? This a major factor to why people sue, because they can't afford these kinds of boo-boos.

Average out-of-pocket cost for a broken bone is $2,500. Certainly not nothing, but kids don't break a bone every month or probably even every year, so it doesn't seem like too wild of a number in the long run. You can extrapolate this further. Why would I allow my 15 year old to start driving? What if she gets into a car accident, and I have to... shudder ... pay her medical bills? I think the potential monetary liab…

In other places it's free though. Well, parents are taxed for the universal healthcare but they're not taxed extra for their kids.

I remember at least 3 hospital visits while I was a kid. One because I managed to get something in my eye that didn't go out without specialized equipment, one because a scratch infected and had to be cleaned surgically, and one because i fissured? (don't know the english term, not completely broken) my middle finger. All fixes free ofc.

Incidentally I spent a month during summer with my middle finger up in a cast. I was too young to fully take advantage of it though.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#107

Post by giantg2 »

ethanbond wrote: post #103
giantg2 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind, just increasing penalties will have little effect (except excluding more people from society adding an overall drag). They need to do better at educating to avoid it.

What on earth does "educating" mean in this context? Do people not know how to read a speedometer? Do they not know how to read a speed limit sign?

I'm talking mostly about DUI. But yes, even with speed limits. A stricter licensing program with better education could fix a lot of the issues. Most people don't understand vehicle dynamics. If they had some basic understanding about stuff like 2x speed is 4x stopping distance, it might wake them up. Most drivers do risky things without realizing they are risky because they are so ignorant, even when following the speed limit. Many other developed nations have lower fatalities and stricter licensing (even when speeds are unrestricted like the autobahn).

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#108

Post by InSteady »

donatj wrote: post #94
lostlogin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at a reasonable speed like 30. Hitting a kid at 30 is going to cause some harm. I don’t think that 30 is a good compromise. They are rare where I live but street layouts which promote better driving would help. They have low/no kerbs and wind through planting etc to keep speed down. However this messes up a commute to work, so unfortunately it’s not a perfect solution.

If that's the goal is to cause no harm, we can't have cars. Hitting someone with a 5000lb chunk of metal at any speed is going to cause harm. The solution here is just to not hit them to begin with. I think it's 30mph is a reasonable speed for not hitting people.

30 MPH is not in no way a reasonable speed for side streets in a neighborhood that you want to be walkable and child-friendly. Save 30 mph for major arterials. If neighborhood side streets have 30 mph speed limits people are just going to blow through any stopsigns the city puts in to pretend it is pedestrian friendly, and they are going to kill people when they do so.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#109

Post by acdha »

giantg2 wrote: post #76
acdha wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world. The problem is that enforcement has declined radically and drivers have learned that there will be basically no consequences for anything short of a fatality and often even then it’ll be minimal. One of the big problems is that the early signals are ignored: the guy saying the dead pedestrian “jumped in front” of his truck now almo…

"If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world." This isn't really true. Most other developed nations have much stricter licensing with much lower fatality rates. Yes, enforcement is definitely an issue too. Progress penalties and fines tied to income levels (or vehicle values) would be a good start.

It is really true. There are various causes being debated but we’re the only rich country where the fatality rate is moving in the wrong direction:

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage...

The source article covers why some of the theories can’t explain the difference on their own:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-death...

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