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Everyone hates the electronic medical record

logicmag.io

201–210 of 343 posts

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that devs that work on EMRs might read this thread. I'm pleading with you to take the EMR to the next level when it comes to UI/UX and reliability.

If the new EMR (or any other IT system) doesn’t look exactly like the old one, everyone will drag their feet switching to it

This is the underlying issue for anything where software isn’t the primary goal. Nobody wants to change their workflow that they’ve trained over years, no matter how absolutely broken and absurd it might be.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#202
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany too

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha This is a joke. We want to have this but its like everything in germany if its about something digital. Its a fucking mess. Everyone can read it. Most doctors dont use it and even many insurance dont use it... its a fucking mess

Ok, but it’s digitalized, I didn’t say it was good. You can now directly go to an Apotheke with your insurance card and get your medication, even the prescription is digitalized.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#203
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the cancelled orders are due to a management decision/policy, and not a software bug? Or that EMR wasn't intended for managing orders and the decision to use it in such a way was wrong? Asking as someone who's mostly unfamiliar with this. Edit - I'm trying to make sense of this thread, and it seems like this might be a reasonable summary: There's good and bad software (epic). The fact that managem…

I am lacking all the information as to whether we are even talking about Epic but Epic is a lousy tool. It is still just a tool though. For the unititiated Epic is not some tiny little software program to manage an ICU, it's a city scale platform to run most of a hospital city. You can do a lot of good things with it and a lot of stupid things with it. If in fact orders are being randomly cancelled in the ICU that's…

I have tried a lot of tools. Epic is terrible. capital T terrible. And its still better than just about every other thing out there.

Epic suffers from "it has to be all things for all people". so it is nothing for anyone. It is bloated, big, overly customizable, yet doesn't fit. Steep learning curve, bad UI/UX, expensive, just all around terrible.

And yet it is still better than everything else i have ever seen, except native single-hospital EMRs like Beth Isreal hospital, Boston, EMR.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#205
> There is an illusion that technology automates work—instead it only changes it.

And a number of follow-up attacks on technology totally in the spirit of Jacques Ellul.

My wife is a physician, and through her and some of my personal experience of working with hospitals, this is how I understand the problem:

* Programmers who write EMR systems critically lack the knowledge of how hospitals or physicians operate. There are multiple causes to this: the process of writing such software isn't a grass-root movement. It's heavy design-first of large, well, huge systems before they are implemented by grunts who never have any idea about how the whole of the system is intended to operate or even how the tiny slice of it they work on is supposed to be used. I should know this, since I was one of those.

* Doctors despise programmers. Doctors also don't want to be programmers. To a typical doctor, a hospital's staff programmer is similar to a medical secretary: a hoop they need to jump to get their work done rather than an actual aid. Being a programmer, try advising a doctor to do something differently, even if that's about how they use their computer, and be exposed to an hour-long lecture on how they studied for N long years, and how their education was so much more intense than yours, and how they had to endure and so on. Of course, doctors see doing programming work as being beneath them.

So, what happens is that instead of interfaces that could enable doctors to be productive at using their computers, they get absolute garbage that's impossible to automate and requires arduous manual labor. I.e. if doctors wanted to learn how to use SQL to access their hospital database, and, let's say, were able to write some short scripts that automated patient processing, communication with other departments and so on, they'd be spending way less time in front of their systems. But they don't.

Instead they get MS-Windows-styled GUI garbage. Impossible to automate, with the source locked away from them, written by someone they couldn't bother to meet and chat with for an hour because their paycheck likely has an extra digit.

My wife being in radiology department reported that, eg. most times patients are sent to them, even inside the hospital for some imaging, they don't get their forms properly filled by the sending doctor. Not only the sending doctors don't know how to fill those forms correctly, they don't want to know. An incorrectly filled form will result in the radiologist calling them back, and they'll be able to communicate what they want done to the patient in this way. It's both because the forms are too inflexible, because there's no trust in the system, and, especially that even if the form is filled correctly the receiving end might not know how to process it correctly.

And this doesn't depend on the country. Countries with mostly uniform, long-standing healthcare systems suffer the same fate.

----

To me, it's clear that the change that needs to happen is that doctors need to become more like programmers. It's unfortunate that they need to spend so much time learning their trade, and it seems like on top of that they need to study something far divorced from the rest of their main subject, but I don't see any other way.

It's not about technology failing doctors, it's the doctors who don't want to embrace technology.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that the cancelled orders are due to a management decision/policy, and not a software bug? The first time the order gets cancelled unintentionally, it's a software bug. Shit happens. When a bug happens, management makes a choice how to respond to that. When the bug is permitted to persist and result in cancelled orders again and again and again, that's no longer a software bug, that's a management de…

Clearly it’s both mismanagement and a software issue. I can’t believe the people here trying to ensure the software platform and provider never looks like the bad guy by defining “bad” in the most convenient way. (Again, management is bad. I’m not denying that. But two things can be bad.)

It is a management issue indeed. Good management holds the software company feet to fire.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#207
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Europe, have never heard of In-N-Out before, don't know how they work, nor the quality they provide...

Respectfully, I’m not sure what you are asking for. In-N-Out is only in a small fraction of the US so most people from the US wouldn’t know much about it either. I believe that’s why the GP comment provided a little more context which was more or less sufficient for me to understand the comparison.

In-n-Out has saturated the southwestern coast, which is a pretty significant fraction of the United States.

The key is they have an absolute ton of employees in the restaurant (a busy McDonald’s might have four or five, In-n-out can have double or triple that. I’ve seen other fast food with two employees, never an In-n-Out) and they work exceptionally hard on specific tasks.

They also only deploy in areas where they’ve determined they’ll be able to keep the store busy enough.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#208
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, I’m not sure what you are asking for. In-N-Out is only in a small fraction of the US so most people from the US wouldn’t know much about it either. I believe that’s why the GP comment provided a little more context which was more or less sufficient for me to understand the comparison.

Initially the In-N-Out example was made without explaining what it is, and even with the added context i think it doesn't really explain how In-N-Out differs from McDonalds. Their operations are better, what does that mean, how does that impact customers, how does that impact cost, etc.

If you ever go to one, you'll understand. They're like the Rolls-Royce of fast food burgers.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#209
post #49

I created the ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source (GPL) EMR which to my knowledge is the only open source one to receive full federal certification. Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems. This article is a doctors perspective on how software did not fix a completely broken workflow. I don't begrudge him…

This was my experience trying to create technology in the real estate world. Realtors are the same way.

HN is (probably) read by mostly software development (-adjacent) people, and this thread is basically software developers blaming users for using their software wrong. Maybe that's true, but I think it's at least worth pointing out before someone mistakenly thinks this isn't an echo chamber.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#210
post #49

I created the ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source (GPL) EMR which to my knowledge is the only open source one to receive full federal certification. Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems. This article is a doctors perspective on how software did not fix a completely broken workflow. I don't begrudge him…

I worked for a couple of years in a company that both developed EMR software and ran clinics -- we employed care providers directly. I assumed going in that this would present amazing opportunities for applying modern technology to improve efficiency, outcomes and both patient and provider experience. Of course that didn't work out the way I expected. I'm not sure if doctors were the problem because to be honest I didn't get to interact with doctors much. The medical providers I did talk to were very interested in using software to improve things, and also extremely smart -- much brighter than the average s/w engineer to be honest. What I did see however was that the need to make (more) money began to dominate, and nothing that we were doing to improve our EMR really had much of an impact on that, at least not a direct or profound one.
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