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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#861

Post by alephnan »

yyyk wrote: post #832

If you had an inkling of a genocide going on and a chance to act, obviously you'd immediately do anything in your power to stop it? Despite the judges being appointed by their own countries*, I'm sure they have humanity. So this is an acquittal in all but name. Oh, they'll keep monitoring and the case will take years, but the result is obvious even now. * e.g. It's obvious the Russian judge has strong incentives to v…

> If you had an inkling of a genocide going on and a chance to act, obviously you'd immediately do anything in your power to stop it?

Doesn’t seem people care about what’s going in Africa. People care here because this is a war of religion. And by that, I mean whether Western countries remain increasingly supreme (in terms of the world order).

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#862

Post by ajb »

irishloop wrote: post #849
peterashford wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

The Palestine/Israel conflict is significantly longer than any of the examples you gave. Which is not to say that its impossible. But the older I get, the less hope I have.

Ethic conflicts all end eventually. A historian: https://archive.is/zADeF

TLDR: the ways they end are:

- partition

- equal representation

- one side driving out/murdering the other

It does seem like a lot of people have given up on the first two, but if it's not one of those then it's the third one. So we have to work towards making it one of the first two.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#863

Post by alephnan »

stefan_ wrote: post #842
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #71

I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.

This is the same government that was just months prior going to quit the ICC so they could host Putin. They have no credibility, and frankly, no fucking power for most of the day. Utterly failed state.

> host Putin. They have no credibility

and they’d credible if they hosted Joe Biden?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#864

Post by bawolff »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #402
bawolff wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory i think they are supposed to ask the security council to step in if the order is ignored. Which would be unlikely to do anything, so nothing. I think its likely israel will comply. The order is pretty weak and mostly stuff israel already claims to be doing. It wouldn't be worth the PR hassle to ignore it.

Israel's government doesn't care about PR hassle from the usual suspect. We may notice that they've had plenty of that lately and it did not stop them at all. Even if doing what the ICJ wants is easy, there's a strong reason not to (from their perspective) - it implies the ICJ should be obeyed and legitimizes them. But why should Israel do that? It's just another leftie NGO from Netenyahu's perspective. Start followi…

Israel is going to balance the pr risk vs other risks and goals. They might care about pr less than other countries, but they aren't going to take a PR loss if there is no corresponding benefit.

If israel wanted to deligetimize the ICJ they wouldn't have participated in the case in the first place. Now that they have sent lawyers, appointed an ad hoc judge, its too late tobpretend they think it is illigetiment.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#865

Post by IlikeMadison »

SirSavary wrote: post #768
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

Note: ISIS was a bunch of European guys who got radicalized and then travelled to the middle east; Hamas is homegrown and was democratically elected by the people of the region.

ISIS is 95% of people of African and Middle-Eastern origins. Then maybe a bit of crazies from Indonesia, Chechnya, etc. As well, ISIS was founded in Iraq itself. How is it a "bunch of European"?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#867

Post by dang »

pmarreck wrote: post #823

[flagged]

We've had to warn you before not to post religious flamewar comments to HN (and also nationalistic and ideological flamewar comments). We end up having to ban accounts that do this repeatedly, because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you! So pleae don't do this on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#868

Post by hollerith »

Animats wrote: post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

That is preposterous.

Israel could (and probably would) prevent the fleet from delivering the aid even without help from the US.

In support of your "If China decides to send humanitarian relief to Gaza, China can do it, and Israel can't stop them," you link to a description of a ship designed for an invasion of an island 85 miles off China's coast, an invasion which China (correctly IMO) calculates would probably end in failure (or else it would've invaded by now).

Israel can't challenge China militarily in, e.g., the Pacific, but it is a wealthy competent state that takes security seriously.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#869

Post by hollerith »

criddell wrote: post #157
Manuel_D wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amphibious landings are highly vulnerable, and almost impossible to pull off without air superiority. What gives the impression that China's amphibious landing ships are resistant to anti-shipping missiles? Every article on modern naval combat I've read highlights just how vulnerable surface vessels are to attack, and how crucial it is to keep them out of range. I am incredibly dubious that China would land military…

Do you think Israel would fire on those ships?

Yes. Also, Beijing would never be so stupid as to send such an expedition.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#870

Post by Berniek »

Firstly, the conflict in the GAZA strip is war.

Pure and simple.

Realistically this war is being fought politically in the worlds media. The fight is for public opinion. So the orders of the IJC are about war. The hair splitters may want to change the nature of war to "genocide" by one side rather than condemn BOTH sides in the conflict. "but we can only take evidence from XYZ and only on matters ABC"

It seems to me to be a case of the UN wanting to have a seat at the table. They have become more & more irrelevant in matters of real importance or conflict. This ruling is pretty meaningless regardless of what your beliefs are. Its just more media circus.

We can argue about statistics and false testimony who is right and which side is credible but we are just adding to the noise.

Most terrorist organizations & actions are the direct result of one group having no political power. It ceases when that group obtains political power.

It seems to me the original attack by HAMAS was simply to ensure that there is more war and that war can be fought in the worlds media. This ruling and the whole procedure is just more of the same.

Wars usually continue to be prosecuted till one (or both) side loses the political will to continue. Does anyone here really believe Israel will lose that political will, regardless of world opinion? Hasn't in the past. Just like Russia.

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