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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#651

Post by explaininjs »

albntomat0 wrote: post #341
explaininjs wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t love Trump, but there’s no denying there was far less war, and especially US-funded war, when he was in office. Ukraine-Russia massively escalated as soon as someone in the pocket of the military industrial complex got put in power, as Putin knew it would, and Israel followed suit soon after.

I find it hard to believe there’s correlation between the beginnings of Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Hamas and who the US president is. If anything, Russia and Hamas are each less likely to spark each conflict (in the specific sense of invading Ukraine and 7 October, not the preconditions) knowing that the US is more likely to provide arms to Ukraine and Israel.

But Israel is far more likely to want conflict to occur. Evidence of such desire would take the form of ignoring intel from international community stating that an attack was planned, and allowing human-sized slow moving targets to pass through the air defense systems unassailed.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#652

Post by bitcurious »

saiya-jin wrote: post #614
locallost wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

Well, the alternative to diplomatic solution is total annihilation of palestinians in west bank, be it by forcing them off the land which is impossible since they have nowhere to run and other islamic states refuse them (so much for inter-muslim brotherhood, I guess Iran should take them), or murdering them one by one which seems to be going on now. Or what we had till now, which led to what we have now. It doesnt ma…

> Well, the alternative to diplomatic solution is total annihilation of palestinians in west bank,

This conflict is taking place in Gaza.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#653

Post by pgeorgi »

nojvek wrote: post #637
mderazon wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

We could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII. Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.

If Germany or Japan is your guideline here, maybe Israel should get a Bomber Harris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris#Second_World_War) or a Truman (see nuclear weapons dropped on Japan) on the scene?

People are saying that what Israel is doing right now is a genocide. You have seen nothing yet: With either of them at the helm, there would either be an unconditional surrender by Hamas or no Palestinian alive anymore - and by November 15, last year.

We don't do such things anymore, and for good reason, but that means that these past situations are unsuitable as example for the present.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#654

Post by protomolecule »

jeswin wrote: post #230
timcobb wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

> SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights. If Putin is arrested in a foreign country, you'll have the largest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world staring down at the very existence of that nation. No country would do this, however earnest they may be about human rights. Neither will it be fair to expect anyone to do this.

"you'll have the largest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world staring down at the very existence of that nation"

Do you really think that Russian government and military would kill in cold blood tens of millions of people over Putin's fate?

Besides, they would be too busy jockeying for power after Putin is out of the game.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#655

Post by protomolecule »

FpUser wrote: post #475
timcobb wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

And the US had threatened military force and sanctions should ICC ever decide to go after American. So what's your point?

The US actually put sanctions on the members of the ICC. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#656

Post by CapricornNoble »

tptacek wrote: post #337
AdamH12113 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the Jewish state... its people experienced... This is your error. States and peoples are not unitary entities with a single coherent outlook and will. The vast majority of the Israeli population is far too young to have directly experienced the Holocaust, which ended 80 years ago. There are plenty of people in Israel who do not want to commit atrocities against Palestinians. There are also people who feel that…

It's under-remarked on, but for a majority of Israeli Jewish people, the nakba era might have more immediate salience than the Holocaust. That's because they're not, as the popular imagination has it, all colonists from Europe; they're the Jewish people of the Middle East and North Africa, all of whom were forcefully expelled from their own homes after 1948. There's no question that the Holocaust has enormous salienc…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#657

Post by 7402 »

nojvek wrote: post #637
mderazon wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

We could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII. Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.

I think the allies (largely the US) were able to effect massive cultural changes in Japan and Germany after WWII from aggressive, totalitarian, racist societies committed to military victory by any means necessary to relatively peaceful, even pacifist societies only via:

1) Forcing unconditional surrender on Germany and Japan, whereby virtually every citizen of those countries was convinced that they had lost the war and that resorting to armed struggle for their goals was a complete failure for Germany and Japan, and,

2) A lengthy occupation in those countries that accomplished many things, including the "de-nazification" of educational system.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#658

Post by taeric »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #495
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

> that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land I’ve heard this line from people who say the West Bank and Gaza are the occupied land, to those who say all of Israel is occupied land. The former makes sense. The latter is extreme. > like apartheid South Africa was dismantled South Africa wasn’t as militarised as the Levant has become, unfortunately. As long as Iran seeks the destruction of Israel, itself an…

I specifically think the mixed use of the word "occupation" to imply that the state of Palestine should include all of the current state of Israel one of the largest trust busting tricks in the modern discourse. I think it is natural to think that the Gaza and West Bank situation is bad and I suspect the majority of even slightly western views would agree.

What shocked me, is that there are some on the far left that fully think all of Israel is an occupation of Palestine. More, they got rather upset when I pointed out that that line of thinking is, ironically, in support of people that have shown genocidal intent.

Curious if you have numbers on how many intentionally refer to all of Israel in this way? (Also curious if my take on that is unfair to folks?)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#659

Post by robertoandred »

worksonmine wrote: post #602
robertoandred wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an apartheid nation. Over 20% of Israelis are Arab.

A girl I know (Jewish) told me about the time she and her boyfriend visited Gaza like it was a trip to the zoo (her words). To her it was so strange how she could come and go as she wished, but they couldn't leave, ever. Think about that for a moment. What would you call such a place? How would you feel being born on the wrong side of the fence?

Who told you they couldn't leave? 40,000 people came and went every month.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#660

Post by vcryan »

mderazon wrote: post #630
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

The notion that the problem is religious fundamentalists is itself propaganda. The people are just people; the problem is a brutal racist occupation that has gone on for far too long.
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