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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#581

Post by metabro »

surume wrote: post #333
tomp wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic) However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close frien…

Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers. 1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch. 2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, th…

>Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, they raped our women, tortured them and then murdered them. They did the same to our men, old people and children.

I have to point out that you are holding soldiers of a wealthy country to the same standards as a terrorist organization in one of the poorest parts of the world. It contradicts the claim that Israel is a bastion of civilization in the region. The behavior of the Israeli soldiers is despicable and your explanation seems to downplay and rationalize it.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#583

Post by jdietrich »

yosefk wrote: post #418
tguvot wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Israeli judiciary is unique in nominating itself this is at most lie and at least misconception. Supreme Court Judges are appointed by the President of Israel, from names submitted by the Judicial Selection Committee, which is composed of nine members: three Supreme Court Judges (including the President of the Supreme Court), two cabinet ministers (one of them being the Minister of Justice), two Knesset members…

In practice, the 3 Supreme Court Judges, the two representatives of the Israel Bar Association, and the 1 Knesset member "traditionally" representing one of the two major political camps [the one aligned with most Supreme Court Judges] always vote together, so most of the judiciary is appointed according to the wishes of the Supreme Court Judges. The veto on appointing Supreme Court Judges adds a modicum of balance,…

>The idea that 5 out 9 people nominating judges aren't elected, directly or indirectly, is AFAIK a fairly unique Israeli invention.

Judges in England and Wales (including supreme court judges) are selected entirely by unelected officials; The government is explicitly prohibited from interfering with their decision. Given the influential nature of English law, I would be very surprised if this was unique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Appointments_Commissi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_of_the_Supreme_Court_o...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#584

Post by bakuninsbart »

smoothjazz wrote: post #66
shmatt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except SA specifically asked the court to require a ceasefire, which would have immediate consequences via security council vote and no more munitions landing in Israel. And the judges voted it down This isn't a read between the lines situation, because SA's request was specifically for the court to temporarily rule for a full immediate ceasefire until the larger case could be heard What is interesting here is that b…

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

You are allowed under international law to lead war with significant amounts of civilian casualties. The issue being judged is claims of Israel committing a genocide. This is just a preliminary order while the full case is considered, and it might be bad PR to disregard it, but nothing else will come of it.

When hearing 'genocide', most people immediately jump to the Holocaust, but the definition used by the ICC and IL in general is far more permissible:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

A to E are horrible acts by themselves, but what makes a genocide is intent, and intent is very hard to prove. Personally, I think SA brought a very strong case forward, the genocidal tendencies of key Israeli decision makers and exeters are well published. In the US and Europe, the political class and general public just ignore the evidence currently, and a ruling of the ICC might help people 'wake up', but not much tangible consequences will result from it otherwise.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#585

Post by anon84873628 »

pgeorgi wrote: post #474
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then?

And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without.

The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#586

Post by enterprise_cog »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #342
password54321 wrote: post #110

[flagged]

Please share your sources

Bombs: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...

White flag: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-palestinian-israel-w... (there is more than one instance of this)

Poison gas is a claim from the family of a dead hostage. They said the pathology report of the death indicated poison gas was being used to clear tunnels. So not confirmed. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2024-01-22/ty-arti...

Destroying schools: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/24/how-israel-has-dest...

Everything else, including these, are pretty easily searchable if you desire to learn more. I’m phone posting so sorry if this is messy.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#587

Post by noqc »

locallost wrote: post #537
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

How does history prove any such thing? That's neither how history or proof work. Most of the wars that have been resolved to everyone's benefit have done so by the unconditional surrender of the aggressors, followed by amicable reconstruction.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#588

Post by hyperdunc »

zhengiszen wrote: post #335

[flagged]

This is complete nonsense. Israel isn't pursuing genocide. They've killed less than 100,000 Palestinians out of several million. That's obvious restraint compared to what they could do if they really wanted to.

You may not like Israel but the word 'genocide' is being abused here, and this whole ICJ ruling is theater.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#589

Post by 1letterunixname »

albntomat0 wrote: post #367
1letterunixname wrote: post #147

ICJ didn't reach any conclusions or positions except that IDF needs to be careful. No call for a ceasefire. I'm curious what people in Tel Aviv see in media. In America, it's wall-to-wall "police say"-like IDF clips and Bill Maher condemnation, dehumanization, and equivocating Palestine supporters with Hamas terrorists. The talking heads cheerfully greet Netanyahu.

> In America, it's wall-to-wall "police say"-like IDF clips and Bill Maher condemnation, dehumanization, and equivocating Palestine supporters with Hamas terrorists. The talking heads cheerfully greet Netanyahu. As someone who also consumes US news, this does not describe what I’ve seen.

Local news or networks? Which ones?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#590

Post by C6JEsQeQa5fCjE »

golergka wrote: post #572
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

[flagged]

[flagged]
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