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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#521

Post by brighteyes »

nashashmi wrote: post #310
bawolff wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what i understand, the ceasefire was an extreme long shot by south africa and nobody really expected the icj to grant it. Particularly because the court cant order hamas to do anything and a one sided cease fire seems kind of unreasonable, but also the right to self defense is pretty fundamental in international law.

Is ICJ even able to order a ceasefire? ICJ did not recognize the activities of Israel as the right to self defense. ICJ would have recognized the activities of rebel force against the genocide as the right to self defense, but I don't think that is a question that came up.

Yes, the ICJ can order a ceasefire. It ordered Russia to stop its invasion of Ukraine, for example. In this case it decided not to, but it did order other measures (which hopefully will save lives, but time will tell).

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#522

Post by fathyb »

robertoandred wrote: post #447
akira2501 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s not an apartheid nation. Over 20% of Israelis are Arab.

That's a weird argument: more than 60% of South Africans were Black during apartheid, where the term originates.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#523

Post by MeImCounting »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

The US Government continues to employ militarized forces to suppress Indigenous resistance to this very day.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#524

Post by thsksbd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #505
thsksbd wrote: post #497

The ICJ punted. The ruling is a joke, how can you rule against the defendant and yet order the defendant to monitor themselves? The ICJ knew if it found against Israel it would loose all credibility outside the West, but it also had too much political pressure from the West to rule for Israel.

> ICJ punted Yes. But this isn’t the final ruling. South Africa asked for something analogous to a preliminary injunction. The ICJ declined to order a preliminary ceasefire. Instead, the case will be tried as usual.

Which will take years that the Palestinians do not have

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#525

Post by romwell »

lolinder wrote: post #502
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

Germany and Japan's peaceful modern history are less due to a clear, overwhelming victory than they were due to the recognition of an absolutely horrific chapter in their country's respective histories and a major cultural movement against the possibility of those kinds of atrocities happening again. Either country could easily come up with more than enough military might to win a war if they chose, but the horrors t…

>due to the recognition of an absolutely horrific chapter

You mean, the absolutely horrific military defeat.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#526

Post by [deleted] »

nashashmi wrote: post #310
bawolff wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what i understand, the ceasefire was an extreme long shot by south africa and nobody really expected the icj to grant it. Particularly because the court cant order hamas to do anything and a one sided cease fire seems kind of unreasonable, but also the right to self defense is pretty fundamental in international law.

Is ICJ even able to order a ceasefire? ICJ did not recognize the activities of Israel as the right to self defense. ICJ would have recognized the activities of rebel force against the genocide as the right to self defense, but I don't think that is a question that came up.

[deleted]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#527

Post by thsksbd »

dragonwriter wrote: post #514
thsksbd wrote: post #497

The ICJ punted. The ruling is a joke, how can you rule against the defendant and yet order the defendant to monitor themselves? The ICJ knew if it found against Israel it would loose all credibility outside the West, but it also had too much political pressure from the West to rule for Israel.

> The ICJ punted. No, it didn't. It ruled on what amounts to (in the parlance of the US legal system) a preliminary injunction, ordering one because the pleadings and supporting evidence on initial review warrant it, while the process of a trial on the merits will take longer. > The ruling is a joke, how can you rule against the defendant and yet order the defendant to monitor themselves? The only people the ICJ can…

The ICJ could, however, order a ceasefire that is a freezing of the conflict.

This process will take years that the Palestinians do not have.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#528

Post by hypeit »

lacker wrote: post #520
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

Isn't that exactly the view of reality that the Israeli right wing holds? They would agree that the choices are either dismantling the state of Israel, or eternal warfare. Since they don't want to dismantle the state of Israel, they elect for eternal warfare. It's funny how on some questions, the most extreme people on both sides agree on the answer. Hamas and the Israeli right wing both agree that the only viable so…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#529

Post by munk-a »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

That's exactly the point, at least how I'm reading it. Between the US and Japan peace and diplomacy was allowed to rule instead of constant violent retaliation. With France and Germany the same - the two countries have, in a pretty meaningful way, simply merged into a single country along with a lot of the rest of Europe.

When it comes to the US Government and Native Americans it's a far less good example - there have been militarized Native resistance groups at times since the 1900s and there has been open violence (see, for instance, Leonard Peltier and AIM)... in a large way America succeeded with erasing native peoples from their lands - and ditto with Canada - to the point where the groups are too fragmented to form any serious claims at independence. I also think Nixon (yes that Nixon) helped cool things off pretty seriously by, essentially, starting reparation programs to help reinject economic health into reservations - while those have had very underwhelming success at fully solving the problem America has been trying to uplift instead of suppress those communities.

All this stuff is really, really complicated - what defines a culture and a nation is extremely nebulous and subject to heavy revision as time passes. But we're all people and we need to be able to talk about peace even if we have deep historical wounds.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#530

Post by bigDinosaur »

akira2501 wrote: post #480
robertoandred wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an apartheid nation. Over 20% of Israelis are Arab.

Are they represented in any way in the Knesset? Are they treated the same is Jewish Israeli citizens when travelling? What about the Arabs in East Jerusalem? Are non Jewish citizens actually afforded equal protections under the Basic Laws? Does the "Law of Return" apply to non-Jewish Israelis? Economically, how are the Arabs doing compared to the Jews?

Indeed it does appear they have representation in the Knesset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Kn...

No idea about the rest of your questions, although the latter two are irrelevant (find any country where every group is doing just as well - it doesn't exist).

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