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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#211

Post by pydry »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #166
pydry wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isnt a genocide going on in Ukraine. Both sides have made the accusation but there's nothing meeting the legal threshold like there is in Gaza.

Yeah, unlike in Ukraine, Gaza’s hospitals are firing back.

They are but apparently it's ok because "what choice do they have"?

https://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-ukraine-report-wrong...

>The report on Ukraine doesn’t even address what the alternative fate of the country’s civilians might have been had their military stood aside

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#212

Post by handoflixue »

throway47362467 wrote: post #170

[flagged]

I had not realized submissions on 7 Oct were banned. Thank you for drawing attention to that. I threw the term "7 Oct" and "7 October" and there's pretty clearly no major threads about it, especially not in October. Even "Hamas" didn't reveal anything.

I don't think it's at all helpful to say "Every" thread in this conversation is "idiotic" alongside this, though. That just gives people room to dismiss your comment

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#213

Post by charred_patina »

vladgur wrote: post #63
tehjoker wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zionism is an ideology that took inspiration from the British empire. It was intended to be "something colonial" and pre-dated the atrocities of WW2. The fascist atrocities in WW2 can be interpreted as colonial tactics applied to Europeans, after all the British had been doing extremely bloody concentration camps in Africa and starved India during WW2. For some reason, Africa doesn't get the same play. I wonder why.…

Modern-day Zionism to me and many others means that Israel has the right to exist. It does not absolve many, including self-proclaimed Zionists, from criticizing some of Israel policies. On other hand, my interpretation of people who are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists logically flows from above statement that they believe that the present state of Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Which implies deportation of ext…

> Modern-day Zionism to me and many others means that Israel has the right to exist.

I think the framing of this argument is so tricky, because states don't have any rights. States aren't human beings. There is so much to unpack in the statement "X state has a right to exist".

> On other hand, my interpretation of people who are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists logically flows from above statement that they believe that the present state of Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Which implies deportation of extermination of 6 million Jewish Israelis

I am not saying that Israel's borders should be dissolved, but if Israel and Palestine were integrated into a single state where Jews and Arabs had equal rights, would this not still be a home for Jews?

Destruction of the state of Israel is not equivalent with the genocide of all Israeli Jews, unless your definition of genocide is the same as the one used by white supremacists in the US, who believe that letting non-whites into the country is genocide.

The point I am trying to make is that is Zionism, by your definition, exclusionary? If so then what you are describing is an ethnostate, which many would argue is a fascist idea.

Jews, Roma, Kurds, and all ethnic minorities deserve human rights. However, they are not entitled to statehood and their states are not entitled to any rights themselves.

Also, I do agree there are antisemites who say "zionism" as a dogwhistle for "jews".

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#214

Post by nradov »

throwaway260124 wrote: post #158
ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

[flagged]

The civilian death toll in Gaza has been tragically high but there hasn't been any independent verification. Regardless of what's on Wikipedia, we can't trust specific numbers.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#215

Post by shilgapira »

throway47362467 wrote: post #170

[flagged]

I don't usually reply to meta posts, but I can't help but agree with this.

As much as I appreciate the work moderators do here any other day of the year, it was disappointing that there was no discussion allowed on October 7th - indeed, every thread was nuked - when 0.1% of the Jews in the world were murdered in a single day.

When Russia attacked Ukraine that was very much allowed to be discussed, and rightly so.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#216

Post by threeseed »

StriverGuy wrote: post #116
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

Does Hamas have to adhere to an ICJ ordered ceasefire?

No. Because they are a terrorist organisation.

Israel is expected to because they are not.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#217

Post by stcroixx »

handoflixue wrote: post #192
theyinwhy wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US, under whichever administration, is in a very difficult position here. If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel. Would that be just? I see a president carefully dancing on the thin line of supporting the Israel state while using the US leverage to stop the war (latest example: sending the CIA chief to the negotiating table). But this needs to be done without enabling Israel's bi…

> If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel. How would Israel disappear? Palestine is clearly no match for them - who else is expected to suddenly move in? I certainly think we could stop funding their military while still pledging to support them if someone actually tries to invade. Keep in mind, Israel has it's own defense budget - it's not like it's military just disappears when US f…

Iran is who is expected to suddenly move in under this scenario.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#218

Post by Sporktacular »

theyinwhy wrote: post #173
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

The US, under whichever administration, is in a very difficult position here. If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel. Would that be just? I see a president carefully dancing on the thin line of supporting the Israel state while using the US leverage to stop the war (latest example: sending the CIA chief to the negotiating table). But this needs to be done without enabling Israel's bi…

Israel has nuclear weapons. By the logic of even developing them, there's no reason not to deploy them if it faces conquest. Any existential crisis facing Israel will not come from outside.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#219

Post by MisterBastahrd »

xenospn wrote: post #125
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

I can assure you Israel will most likely ignore any resolution that does not involve the hostages returning.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#220

Post by alwayslikethis »

AdamH12113 wrote: post #106
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

> ... the Jewish state... its people experienced... This is your error. States and peoples are not unitary entities with a single coherent outlook and will. The vast majority of the Israeli population is far too young to have directly experienced the Holocaust, which ended 80 years ago. There are plenty of people in Israel who do not want to commit atrocities against Palestinians. There are also people who feel that…

It's not self-evident that "the cultural memory of being targeted by the Holocaust [should] stop an ethno-state from setting up an apartheid regime". In Liberia, where the freed American slaves were sent to, they essentially enslaved the native population.
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