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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#121

Post by layer8 »

smoothjazz wrote: post #66
shmatt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except SA specifically asked the court to require a ceasefire, which would have immediate consequences via security council vote and no more munitions landing in Israel. And the judges voted it down This isn't a read between the lines situation, because SA's request was specifically for the court to temporarily rule for a full immediate ceasefire until the larger case could be heard What is interesting here is that b…

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

The measures ordered by the UN court are in references to Article II of the Genocide Convention [0], which limits the scope to “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”, where the court identifies the group as “Palestinians in Gaza”. So it’s the intent of genocide towards that group which is the deciding factor. As long as the actions do not carry that intent (and are plausible as such), they are not prohibited.

My reading is that the court is basically saying “You are presently running the risk of committing genocide, please take all measures in your power to prevent that.”

[0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#122

Post by xenospn »

Animats wrote: post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

This has exactly zero chances of happening. Israel would never let anyone they don’t approve of get anywhere near Gaza.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#123

Post by Animats »

nickff wrote: post #107
Animats wrote: post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

Which other international conflicts has China resolved? The current Chinese state seems to be much better at fostering conflict (I.e. the ongoing Korean War) than resolving it.

So far, not much. Gaza is a good place to start. China wants more influence in the Middle East, and already owns or operates a large number of ports outside China.[1] Israel blockades the existing ports of Gaza. A China-run port in Gaza, protected by the PLAN, is a possibility.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/china-...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#124

Post by dang »

objektif wrote: post #104
golf_mike wrote: post #28

How is this hackernews?

You are ok to talk about pizza recipes on github but not about most important geopolitical events in the world?

Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style? It's against HN's rules, and especially against the intended spirit that I tried to describe at the top of this thread.

Obviously most of what gets discussed on HN is relatively unimportant in the world. If that weren't the case, HN would simply be a current affairs site, which it isn't. At the same time, that doesn't mean every political story is off topic here—the guidelines already make that clear by their use of the word "most": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

There's a long and pretty consistent history to how HN handles the question of political topics.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#125

Post by xenospn »

aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

I can assure you Israel will most likely ignore any resolution that does not involve the hostages returning.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#126

Post by someotherperson »

shmerl wrote: post #27

[flagged]

It doesn't. Mosul's civilian population were Iraqi citizens, the conflict was much larger, lasted a lot longer, used smaller munitions, resulted in a lot more military deaths and significantly less civilian deaths. This is despite the enemy being significantly better trained, better equipped, better logistics, years of preparation and less intelligence by the anti-ISIL coalition.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#127

Post by smoothjazz »

skrebbel wrote: post #58
smoothjazz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about religion, it's about occupation. Zionists got permission to occupy the land from the British with The Balfour Declaration then started the invasion in full in 1948 with Nakba. When you occupy someone's land, there can never be peace until they get their land back or are fully exterminated or controlled militarily. This is why colonization most often leads to genocide or permanent apartheid.

> When you occupy someone's land, there can never be peace until they get their land back or are fully exterminated or controlled militarily I don’t understand why people think this is a good argument. Lots and lots of places shifted in control since 1948. Poland moved half a country to the left, world empires got decolonized, India and Pakistan split and then the latter split once more, all with enormous population…

Forcing people off of their land is the definition of ethnic cleansing and I don't think that's ever ok nor generally accepted in the world. I think Israel is a lot like apartheid South Africa. You can end the apartheid government and start making reparations, including land back to the native inhabitants.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#128

Post by ajb »

voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

If you look at the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention's statement [1], they call both the Hamas attack and the current Israeli action Genocidal. They characterise genocidal attacks in terms of not just their factual effect, but the intentional psychological effect of an "massacre of symbols of group life", in which the genocidaires deliberately try to symbolically erase the other group, in ways which are hugely traumatic: "inversion rituals, such as the killing of children in front of their family members; and desecration rituals, such as the massacre of entire families, the setting fire to homes with families still inside them, and the desecration of dead bodies", which they see evidence of in the Hamas attack. This is all magnified by the existing trauma of the Jewish people, in the holocaust but also events since, in living memory of more people - such as 9/11 (an attack on the city with the largest Jewish population).

So you have to realise that Israelis are not thinking normally right now. Even though the Hamas attack has in military terms "culminated", and Israel's military is many times more powerful, their trauma leads them to believe that there is a real, present threat of extinction of the Israeli state and their own nation and families. Under such conditions, it is very hard for them to see the suffering of 'the enemy' as relevent.

It also doesn't help that basically everyone else is just piling responsibility for a solution on the Israelis, despite the US, UK and Europe having enormous historic responsibility for setting up the situation.

[please note, this is explanation, not justification]

[1] https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statemen...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#130

Post by biorach »

charred_patina wrote: post #85
abdulhaq wrote: post #54

[flagged]

A common sentiment I have heard in the US is that "TikTok causes antisemitism". What I believe is actually happening is that TikTok debunks a lot of Hasbara talking points about the Israeli occupation of palestine (because people can see the violence with their own eyes), but then people are not educated further about the nuances of Zionism and Judaism, the different political movements within Israel like Gush Emunim…

> when westerners stop supporting Israel they adopt antisemitic viewpoints.

That is very definately not a given. There are many, a majority I hope, of "westerners" who oppose the actions of the state of Israel without becoming anti semetic

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