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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#61

Post by objektif »

throwaway55479 wrote: post #16
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

Israel's tactic has always been deterrence: I will inflict you so much pain that you will think twice before doing this again. Despite being proven wrong, a "realist politician' will automatically think of adding more (and then some) deterrence as the only solution. I remember 20 years ago, during the first bombing of Gaza, they hit just ONE building and felt pressured enough to apologize for the handful of civilian…

No essentially it is as simple as how any abuser bully behaves. They will continue their behavior as long as they are allowed to. Look at US for enabling them.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#63

Post by vladgur »

tehjoker wrote: post #48
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

Zionism is an ideology that took inspiration from the British empire. It was intended to be "something colonial" and pre-dated the atrocities of WW2. The fascist atrocities in WW2 can be interpreted as colonial tactics applied to Europeans, after all the British had been doing extremely bloody concentration camps in Africa and starved India during WW2. For some reason, Africa doesn't get the same play. I wonder why.…

Modern-day Zionism to me and many others means that Israel has the right to exist.

It does not absolve many, including self-proclaimed Zionists, from criticizing some of Israel policies.

On other hand, my interpretation of people who are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists logically flows from above statement that they believe that the present state of Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Which implies deportation of extermination of 6 million Jewish Israelis

In my opinion, the word Zionism has been hijacked by activists who know that being anti-Jewish is not good optics, but anti-Zionizm is still something that can be sold to the masses.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#64

Post by zer00eyz »

solatic wrote: post #40
smoothjazz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this the kind of discussion we should be having though? Why flag it?

This is Hacker News. Technology, science, business, not politics and certainly not geopolitics. There are many discussions worth having, not all discussions worth having should be on HN.

>> not politics and certainly not geopolitics.

Ages ago I had a job working in online advertising. My comment a the time was this "Advertising is worse than porn, but working here I can go home to my feminist girlfriend and not get shit for it."

Technology and politics have always had an intersection but unless it was part of your job, it was somewhat avoidable.

This is no longer the case. The simple word "alignment" means that these sorts of classical political issues have direct impact on tech, platforms and what they do. We, as a group, who has a unique view of what freedom means (speech, software and that intersectioN) should be acutely aware of the chilling effect we're living under on this topic. Even here where the discourse remains (mostly) civil there are those who will attempt to just shut it down.

I would be keenly interested to see how heavily this gets flagged and how that compares to other topics. I doubt dag would tell us but I could hope!

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#65

Post by exe34 »

smoothjazz wrote: post #2

Glad to see Israel face some responsibility for its horrific acts against civilians. > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using.

No, if they wanted a ceasefire they would have asked for a ceasefire.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#66

Post by smoothjazz »

shmatt wrote: post #30
smoothjazz wrote: post #2

Glad to see Israel face some responsibility for its horrific acts against civilians. > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using.

Except SA specifically asked the court to require a ceasefire, which would have immediate consequences via security council vote and no more munitions landing in Israel. And the judges voted it down This isn't a read between the lines situation, because SA's request was specifically for the court to temporarily rule for a full immediate ceasefire until the larger case could be heard What is interesting here is that b…

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#67

Post by xenospn »

smoothjazz wrote: post #2

Glad to see Israel face some responsibility for its horrific acts against civilians. > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using.

Not at all. It simply instructed Israel to try and hit fewer people. Which is what we all expect from every army.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#68

Post by bsaul »

throwaway55479 wrote: post #16
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

Israel's tactic has always been deterrence: I will inflict you so much pain that you will think twice before doing this again. Despite being proven wrong, a "realist politician' will automatically think of adding more (and then some) deterrence as the only solution. I remember 20 years ago, during the first bombing of Gaza, they hit just ONE building and felt pressured enough to apologize for the handful of civilian…

Note that the least you can say is that escalation is happening on both sides. Oct 7 level of atrocities has never been seen before in israel.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#69

Post by throwaway260124 »

cassepipe wrote: post #18
Mandain62 wrote: post #17

I really hoped that a submission on ICJ ruling will pass the aggressive flagging. At least hoped that dang will keep his promise about allowing a submission about the case. This one could be it. I understand that once allowed there will be trove of hard liners will make it hell to moderate. But being difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss a potential genocide in a making in front of our eyes.

EDIT: The title has been changed since and the discussion has been unflagged The problem is that this is such a partisan issue than partisanship can be perceived in the smallest of details. As someone who was staunchly pro-palestinian but as of recently came to have a more informed and I hope a more nuanced view of the whole situation, I can't help to see the title as potentially misleading : Is the ICJ saying to pre…

To answer your question though. It’s neither. The court found that allegations of genocide are plausible.

That is, especially some of the statements by senior officials could be understood as genocidal.

What I gleaned from reading blogs: It is likely that the actus reus for genocide is there but intent will be very hard to prove if it exists

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#70

Post by xenospn »

smoothjazz wrote: post #66
shmatt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except SA specifically asked the court to require a ceasefire, which would have immediate consequences via security council vote and no more munitions landing in Israel. And the judges voted it down This isn't a read between the lines situation, because SA's request was specifically for the court to temporarily rule for a full immediate ceasefire until the larger case could be heard What is interesting here is that b…

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

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