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When America first dropped acid

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Re: When America first dropped acid

#151

Post by physicles »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #98
asveikau wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, but ignoring this somewhat, I offer this: One remarkable thing is how the hippie stuff often induced by chemical manipulation of serotonin receptors mirrors a lot of religious messages. You can take slogans like "peace on earth, love your neighbor, love is all you need" and say, is that hippie stuff? Or is it, say... The message attributed to Jesus? In that sense, you don't really need the drugs or counte…

There is a not insignificant amount of evidence pointing to psychedelics as playing an outsized role in the formation of religions. A shaman brewing a mystical drink that gives you visions of supernatural forces is pretty convincing evidence of a god(s) to your any 2000 B.C. person. How else could you explain such a trip while having no concept of chemicals much less neurochemistry.

Sam Harris recently interviewed historian Brian Muraresku about just this topic. Brian studies ancient mystery religions, in which a central part of the “faith” was often an experience that was likely induced by psychedelics. It’s frustrating how little first-hand literary evidence there is, but archaeologists have managed to find actual ancient wine jars laced with all sorts of interesting crap — wine back then wasn’t the pure stuff we have today.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#152

Post by opportune »

takoid wrote: post #92
elsjaako wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the way Hunter S. Thompson described it. I'll strip it a bit for brevity, but the whole book (Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) is worth reading. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run . . . but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in t…

Another relevant quote from Fear and Loathing that was posted on HN a little over a week ago by isoprophlex: ... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

This is such a great succinct summation of my feelings on “psychedelic culture” as someone who has actually participated. It drives me crazy when people act like psychedelics open a window into deep spiritual truths and that taking them makes you some how more enlightened.

This culture is still pervasive - probably accounting for the majority of people who actively argue for decriminalization and research - and a bad spokesman. It reminds me a lot of the people who think Cannabis can’t be addictive, cures cancer, and has no negative effects. In some ways, it fetishizes and ascribes magical properties to drugs just as much as the “drugs are bad with zero exceptions” crowd does. Except, in many aspects it’s worse, because it downplays risks and pressures people to partake. Normal people notice it even if they can’t articulate it, and it does a lot to discredit reasonable people.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#153

Post by opportune »

profsummergig wrote: post #104

I've never dropped acid. Net-net, what's best in your (whosoever is reading this) opinion? 1. To never drop acid. 2. To try it out a couple times and never do it again? 3. To add it as part of one's regimen as and when one needs it?

Personally, I do not believe the benefits outweigh the risks unless you have cluster headaches or treatment resistant depression (without anxiety).

Most of what people consider to be “profound” during tripping is just the drug making you think things are profound - in the same way alcohol makes you think it’s reasonable to get angry about an argument about a TV show or cocaine makes you think Uber for cats is the next trillion dollar company. It unquestionably does put you in a state where you may have ideas or thought patterns you won’t have otherwise so there’s a chance that those ideas are actually profound, just like your cocaine-fueled startup idea actually may be a good one. But people ascribe too much meaning and magic to this IMO, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

Some people, like myself, have had panic attacks (“bad trips”) on psychedelics. Without going into detail these can be very disconcerting and leave lingering effects like PTSD/anxiety. If you are prone to anxiety I would not partake, and personally I think the benefits don’t outweigh the risk of this at all for most people. At the very least I caution against mixing LSD with cannabis, recommend you have someone with you that isn’t tripping, and ideally have something on hand to treat a panic attack (even if just strong beer/wine/liquor).

A lot of people will say that 1. This only happens if you get something else passed off as acid, or have a bad set and setting 2. You can avoid that if you are smart about where you get it. I think that’s BS because it’s a well documented phenomenon and testing can only easily rule out certain particular things anyway (you can only ever be certain about it if you made it yourself or got it from a regulated research source). Similarly, LSD has the potential to induce psychosis and schizophrenia, which many say is only possible if you were going to develop those conditions anyway (it was already latent) - which is nondisprovable and has no way of being identified. Personally I think these arguments are made from a place of wishful thinking that it can’t happen to them.

On the other hand single trips have been shown/known to help pull people out of depressive states in a moderately durable manner. You may not only process feelings or concepts you haven’t before, but the drug itself may induce a good mood lasting a few days called an “afterglow” which could bring you out of some kind of local optimum. If depression has been negatively impacting your quality of life for a long time I would consider the potential benefits to outweigh the risks enough to try it once.

Also, cluster headaches I believe are uniquely treatable by psychedelics. Those are the only thing that I think justifies adding it to a “regimen” because IIUC those headaches are so uniquely extreme and debilitating.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#154

Post by mock-possum »

nyolfen wrote: post #120
profsummergig wrote: post #104

I've never dropped acid. Net-net, what's best in your (whosoever is reading this) opinion? 1. To never drop acid. 2. To try it out a couple times and never do it again? 3. To add it as part of one's regimen as and when one needs it?

it is basically analogous to porn -- what porn serves for your sex drive, acid and psychedelics generally do for your desire for meaning and insight. occasionally you will hear of someone who finds it therapeutic for trauma or something, but for most people, even those who claim to have found great truths, it makes no material impact on the course of their lives, unless it is a negative one from emotional destabiliza…

I would generalize it a little further, and look at psychedelics’ effects as “merely” providing an intense emotional experience.

when something feels really good or really bad, that memory stands out in your brain, and it’s hard to shake, for better or worse, it colours future experiences, shapes the way you interpret and react to them.. One huge negative experience can cast a long shadow - and so can one huge positive experience. A negative and a position don’t cancel one another out, but they each reduce the sum impact of the other - and if your goal is to use one intense emotional experience to change the weight of another, then psychedelics are absolutely a route to making that change.

If you’re trying to cope with trauma, a powerful positive experience on psychedelics can help attenuate your memory of that pain - and if you’re trying to break a habit e.g. a psychological addiction, a negative experience on psychedelics can offset the effects of past positive reinforcement from indulging that addiction. Very similar to forcing yourself to drink until you’re sick, to make you averse to drinking.

Carefully and purposefully seeking out experiences that shape your mind is an important part of being sentient, imo. You don’t have to use drugs to do it, but you’re really missing out if you don’t pursue the practice at all.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#155

Post by opportune »

bowsamic wrote: post #134
throwaway_ls wrote: post #73

I was suffering from really bad loneliness and depression. I caught wind that friends I wasn't particularly close with were having an LSD retreat. I was raised that all 'hard' drugs were bad and potentially addictive. But I decided to join them and to try it. It turned out to be an transformative experience for me. And it wasn't from the LSD itself, the dose was too low to impact my brain in a lasting way. But it's h…

My experience was sadly the opposite and it greatly exacerbated my depression and invented the thought of suicide in my mind. It’s hard because there are many people online who get angry at any mention of negative outcomes, but I have to share my side of the story too. Thankfully it is slowly improving, but it has been quite a ride since then. Maybe exactly what I needed? But can’t say those 5 years weren’t absolute…

It also took me 5 years to recover from a bad trip - I believe it was so traumatic that it gave me some form of PTSD. I had actually tripped several times before and also tried other psychedelics. Completely agree that online you are met with skepticism and FUD at the mentions of these experiences, and also that maybe ultimately it did have some positives come of it (respect your body and mind and don’t be reckless? Develop mental resilience?).

After that experience, I believe that for most people the benefits do not outweigh the risks until the drug is better studied clinically. The exceptions would be those who stand to experience exceptional quality of life improvements from a treatment-resistant depression breakthrough or cluster headache treatments (which AIUI are already pretty clinically established).

That said, I am probably too curious about life and novel experiences to have ever heeded this kind of advice if it meant not satisfying my curiosity at least once. So if you’re dying of curiosity I get how it might be worth it anyway.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#156

Post by zikzak »

opportune wrote: post #152
takoid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another relevant quote from Fear and Loathing that was posted on HN a little over a week ago by isoprophlex: ... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

This is such a great succinct summation of my feelings on “psychedelic culture” as someone who has actually participated. It drives me crazy when people act like psychedelics open a window into deep spiritual truths and that taking them makes you some how more enlightened. This culture is still pervasive - probably accounting for the majority of people who actively argue for decriminalization and research - and a bad…

Could not agree more. I have tripped countless times. But in the late 80s and early 90s. No hippies to be found. I did have some interesting revelations but nothing I wouldn't have come to via other means of conversation or introspection.

For me, and most people I was doing this with, it was just an affordable, long lasting drug. Sure, I had read various books about opening the doors of perception but at some point you realize it's just more "you" that you are finding.

I do think psycadelics can be used therapeutically in the right conditions but I'm not convinced ad hoc trips will get you there unless you are already skilled at introspective techniques.

The one thing I'll say I agree with is it does change your perspective and can give you a break from your ego. Seeing how nice it is to not be a slave to all the negativity, dwelling in the past, and obsessing over the future is very freeing and taught me that pursuit of meditation was worth doing.

Ultimately, I'd say meditation can give you the benefits that people associate with psychedelics if you are consistent in the practice.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#157

Post by asveikau »

mock-possum wrote: post #139
matrix87 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because psychedelics wake up the part of the human psyche that understands religion

That would require that religion exists outside of human experience, to be discovered and understood and awoken to - which is a nice story, but not strictly true. There is no religion, outside of what we imagine. We made it up. It isn’t like the water cycle, it’s not something just waited to be discovered by humans who know how to look for it. Religion is fantasy.

I'm not totally convinced objective reality exists either. This kind of existential question cannot really be answered. You presumably think, as I tend to also, that what we describe in our scientific understanding exists independently of us, and it is there to be discovered, understood, and awoken to. But we can't really know that we're not "imagining" in a similar way as your derisive description of religion. Further, if objective reality exists, it's very, very vast, and we are very small, our senses and cognition limited, and we are likely unable to comprehend it.

Really in all cases, religious and secular, we make the best guesses available to us. I think we need to be humble about all of this.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#158

Post by chasd00 »

profsummergig wrote: post #104

I've never dropped acid. Net-net, what's best in your (whosoever is reading this) opinion? 1. To never drop acid. 2. To try it out a couple times and never do it again? 3. To add it as part of one's regimen as and when one needs it?

I wouldn’t say don’t do it but just understand that LSD (the real stuff) is incredibly powerful and poorly understood. When it goes well it’s good beyond comprehension, when it goes bad it’s bad beyond comprehension. There’s no shaking it off either, once it takes hold it has you for 10-12 hrs.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#159

Post by ks2048 »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #13

Recently read a description of 1960's ideology. The claim being that its all propaganda, and what we know as 60s ideology (peace love etc) actually never really happened for a real duration of time. What did happen was that those that prescribed to that line of thinking either moved to communes, or they dropped so much acid they were societally irrelevant. There werent many people actually out and about that were pus…

I think most revolutions are done by relatively small (and surprisingly small) percentage of the population (social revolutions, political revolutions, etc). I believe there is quantitative evidence of this out there if you look for it.

Re: When America first dropped acid

#160

Post by justatdotin »

zikzak wrote: post #156
opportune wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a great succinct summation of my feelings on “psychedelic culture” as someone who has actually participated. It drives me crazy when people act like psychedelics open a window into deep spiritual truths and that taking them makes you some how more enlightened. This culture is still pervasive - probably accounting for the majority of people who actively argue for decriminalization and research - and a bad…

Could not agree more. I have tripped countless times. But in the late 80s and early 90s. No hippies to be found. I did have some interesting revelations but nothing I wouldn't have come to via other means of conversation or introspection. For me, and most people I was doing this with, it was just an affordable, long lasting drug. Sure, I had read various books about opening the doors of perception but at some point y…

> it's just more "you" that you are finding

surely "just" more you still offers "deep spiritual truths", and surely finding them makes you more enlightened.

> I'd say meditation can give you the benefits that people associate with psychedelics if you are consistent in the practice.

I don't see how this in anyway devalues the psychedelics

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