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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#631

Post by m000 »

throwaway290 wrote: post #281
threeseed wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic should have sued over the size of Apple's cut, not it's right to take a cut Epic charges 5% for Unreal Engine. Apple offers developers significantly more than just a games engine.

The most famous Epic game is (or was until this legal battle) played on iOS more than on any other platform, that's in Epic's own complaint. So who built iOS? Why so many people use it? How come they are willing to pay for games instead of pirating them? Looks like whoever developed iOS and all the hardware it runs on and the ecosystem that makes it appealing for rich users is actually providing Epic a ton of value a…

What you describe is the epitome of gatekeeping.

Epic developed a cross-platform game that runs on half a dozen platforms. The appeal of the game is exactly because of that. And you claim that Epic should pay 30% to Apple, because "we are friends with rich people".

Not to mention that the "is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit" claim is completely bollocks. Can you point to any iOS-exclusive games that matter out there? Ah, right. They don't exist. Because there's (comparatively) very little money in iOS gaming.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#632

Post by atoav »

riscy wrote: post #548
atoav wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where can I vote out apple if I am unhappy with the 30%? Not everything you pay money for is comparable to taxes.

Don’t develop for iOS.

That is not voting.

That is the equivalent of telling someone who doesn't like the current dictator to "go live in the desert".

Remember: I did not bring up the bad analogy. Someone abusing their quasi-monopolistic position to charge high fees is not the same as a tax. This was the point of my post. And sure we can pretend it is the same and bend reality till it fits, but that seems to me more like an idological expedition, than an insightful exploration.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#633

Post by yard2010 »

andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

Ikr. That's a big incentive to be evil! Special snowflakes will vouch for you no matter what

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#634

Post by sschueller »

sashank_1509 wrote: post #625

Yes Apple is obviously engaging in rent seeking behavior to profit off developers. But do they deserve to do so? First they invented the smart phone and App Store. That gives them a right to rent seeking by most people’s standards for a particular period of time. It’s why we have patents. Perhaps you think 16 years is a long time but then Mickey Mouse’s patent expired recently. Second they managed to stave off compet…

"First they invented the smart phone and App Store"

No they did not. The first iPhone was released on June 2007 and Apple had no intent to give anybody else the ability to develop any app for their phone. In fact Steve Jobs was vehemently against any app store.

Apple only introduced app store on the second year of its first iPhone launch, one day before release of new iPhone 3G.

Other types of smart phones and app stores existed before Apple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Communicator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile_2003

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Marketplace

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#635

Post by pjc50 »

ben_w wrote: post #603
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

> You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. True. > All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer. I'm old enough to have developed software before the App Store existed, and remember that everyone was very excited both buy it…

It's a small amount compared to retail; it's a large amount compared to a download; and it's infinitely larger than the 0% platform royalty required by IBM-compatible PCs.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#636

Post by CogitoCogito »

riscy wrote: post #599
jdkoeck wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it’s crazy people defend Apple on this. Apple is not just providing a payment platform, it’s forcing you to use it. As a developer, you should be free to use any payment platform you want in your app, like on the web. Let the user decide. End of story.

Apple provides the OS and SDKs developers need to make their app function at all. Users do not care how much it costs a developer. They want it to be easy to see and cancel subscriptions all in one place. The web’s myriad of payment systems is the opposite of a good user experience, meant to only fatten the pockets of developers by making it difficult to cancel.

> Users do not care how much it costs a developer.

This is a ludicrous statement. The users are the ones paying for it.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#637

Post by rickdeckard »

nevir wrote: post #469
remus wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think apple's 30% cut is excessive, but I don't think this line of argument helps. We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

The missing part is that Apple's maneuver was to effectively destroy the wholesale model in favor of an agency-model, and orchestrate all major publishers to charge more for ebooks just so they can earn their 30% commission from it.

Apple actively engaged as facilitator to help publishers raise prices on the whole market, for a 30% cut.

The result was that books previously available for $9.99 were suddenly sold for $12.99

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-steve-jobs-and-apple-fix...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#638

Post by majani »

sashank_1509 wrote: post #625

Yes Apple is obviously engaging in rent seeking behavior to profit off developers. But do they deserve to do so? First they invented the smart phone and App Store. That gives them a right to rent seeking by most people’s standards for a particular period of time. It’s why we have patents. Perhaps you think 16 years is a long time but then Mickey Mouse’s patent expired recently. Second they managed to stave off compet…

For me the issue is that in a perfect scenario, you would be able to adjust your pricing to 30% more and see whether the market could bear it. But Apple ties developers to fixed pricing tiers which doesn't allow this. Maybe the battle should be for removal of these fixed tiers

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#639

Post by quonn »

the_other wrote: post #630
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

I often defend Apple. I don't want to defend Apple on this current topic: I think taking a cut of out-of-app physical purchases/subscriptions is ridiculous and should be legally challenged. However... > All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer. If you're gonna argue that, you have to inspect the edges of this p…

> If you own your own company, do you share most/all profits with your staff

This is not the same, there a degrees of unethical behavior. We should collectively try to give more meaning to these degrees instead of jumping to first principles.

Taking your example, there is a difference between taking a cut or underpaying your staff or severely underpaying them or perhaps not paying them at all or perhaps forced labor or perhaps outright slavery.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#640

Post by ric2b »

4pkjai wrote: post #433
55555 wrote: post #402

Google should update the Chrome TOS so that they get 30% of all sales placed through Chrome, regardless of payment processor used. They're missing out on trillions of dollars and all they have to do is update their TOS!

A lot of businesses spend more than 30% of their products cost on Google Ads. I know plenty of people who sell something for $20, and spend $30 on Google Ads to get that user to their site.

But at least there are alternatives, even if Google is dominant in the space.
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