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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#181

Post by mr_toad »

danenania wrote: post #63
MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft had like 95% of the market. Apple has 50%. Courts have already ruled they’re not a monopoly. Epic asked the Supreme Court to look at that again and they specifically decided not to and to leave the decision in place. That’s why Apple can do what they’re (now, post order) doing legally and Microsoft couldn’t.

iOS and Android taken together are clearly a monopoly though. So call it a cartel or duopoly with price fixing if you like rather than a monopoly. It's exactly the kind of situation that antitrust laws were created to prevent.

> iOS and Android taken together are clearly a monopoly though.

That’s impossible by definition, a literal contradiction in terms.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#182

Post by lapcat »

jacquesm wrote: post #155
lapcat wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many problems with this take. Here are a few: 1) Many App Store apps are completely free, paying nothing to Apple except the $99 per year fee, so they have no stake in this issue. 2) My understanding is that more than 90% of developers in the App Store make less than $1 million per year and thus are covered by the Small Business Program, which charges only 15% rather than 30%. Revenue in the App Store is…

> 1) Many App Store apps are completely free, paying nothing to Apple except the $99 per year fee, so they have no stake in this issue. I don't see that as a problem. > 2) My understanding is that more than 90% of developers in the App Store make less than $1 million per year and thus are covered by the Small Business Program, which charges only 15% rather than 30%. Revenue in the App Store is extremely top-heavy, wi…

> I can't answer that question for any particular developer.

I can answer for this particular developer. No, it's not worth it for me. There are many huge problems with the App Store, but I personally don't consider the 15% cut to be among the top problems. I could write a long screed about those problems (and I have before), but that would be a bit off topic. I will mention one thing though: I think the "race to the bottom" is a much bigger problem than the cut. I would happily pay a much higher cut if I could charge higher prices for my apps. Just look at the simple math: 85% of $1N = $0.85N Incidentally, I think even for Epic, the 30% cut is not the entirety of the problem. Epic is a cross-platform company, and App Store payments, locked in and controlled by Apple, make it difficult for Epic to do anything cross-platform that includes iOS.

> What about those poor dockworkers?

Well, I'm not poor. I don't need a higher income to survive. Also, going back to the points I already made, it's realistic for dockworkers to organize and all strike simultaneously, because of their much smaller number, geographic congregation, and shared interests.

> In some cases people died to fight for their rights.

You want me to die to slightly improve the App Store? Um, no thanks.

> write a bunch of press releases and build a movement

Oh, is that all?? Write the press releases, and they will come, amirite!

> It will be work, but so what, if you think it is worth it then it's worth doing well.

I've actually tried to organize a boycott of Apple's Feedback Assistant, but it doesn't seem to have been very effective. Organizing is extremely hard, especially a global movement! No, it's nothing like cat memes or Hacker News comments, especially when the stakes are so high.

> As for language barriers and such: there's an app for that...

Give me a break... I wouldn't even trust the apps for doing customer support, much less union organizing.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#183

Post by [deleted] »

halostatue wrote: post #148
LeafItAlone wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can I buy an Audible audiobook directly in the app on iOS (and for cheaper than listed on Amazon), but not a Kindle book?

You can't. You can use your credits from your subscription, but you cannot pay for a new audiobook in the app.

[deleted]

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#184

Post by sundvor »

charcircuit wrote: post #168
poundofshrimp wrote: post #145

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

>So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? On desktop you have similar stores like Steam. The store takes a 30% cut from all sales on the platform and they require apps on the platform to use their payment processing so that they can take that cut. The difference between Windows and iOS here is that third party stores can be installed without being l…

PC platform: Steam doesn't care if (case in point) Eagle Dynamics allows direct downloads from their website of DCS World - in fact they embrace it, by offering account linking APIs.

So on PCs, unlike on iOS, users can buy their content as they choose.

And it's not as if Microsoft forces everyone to use their (exceptionally crappy) store either.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#185

Post by thrdbndndn »

For me, the glaring issue here is not whether 27% is fair or not. Rather, it's the absence of an alternative method to do so without relying on Apple's "services."

Naturally, there can be endless debates about whether this is acceptable or not. However, the reality is that there is a striking disparity between the iOS's model and that of Android, PC, or even Mac.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#186

Post by [deleted] »

LeafItAlone wrote: post #92
ncallaway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in a regular browser you can make purchases on Amazon like normal. If you attempt to purchase a kindle book from within the kindle app, you will not be able to. Nor will there be any messaging explaining how to make a purchase (because apple does not allow such messaging). You’ll just be mysteriously confused about why you can’t buy a book.

Why can I buy an Audible audiobook directly in the app on iOS (and for cheaper than listed on Amazon), but not a Kindle book?

[deleted]

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#187

Post by kccqzy »

onethought wrote: post #130
bradgessler wrote: post #54

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%. For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that t…

How can the “second most popular phone” have a monopoly?

Read the ruling. It's not a monopoly. https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2

> Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws. While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illegal. The final trial record did not include evidence of other critical factors, such as barriers to entry and conduct decreasing output or decreasing innovation in the relevant market. The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#188

Post by eblanshey »

stouset wrote: post #177
poundofshrimp wrote: post #145

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

Apple is hosting, distributing, and directly marketing apps in the app store. They are reviewing submitted apps for compliance with their policies and security requirements. If you want to compare it to desktop computers, great! Compare it to the macOS App Store which… takes a 30% commission. Whether or not you personally agree that 30% is a reasonable fee, you can't simply deny that operating the app store costs mon…

But they don't allow alternate app stores.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#189

Post by enragedcacti »

lolinder wrote: post #154
bradgessler wrote: post #54

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%. For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that t…

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

> Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and delivering the app bundles. The in-app payment system was a convenient way for Apple to collect its commission and a way for Apple to create a unified payment experience for its customers, but it was never the Achilles heel for Apple's business model.

Is it just me or does this argument seem insanely flimsy? If Apple were serious about it then why aren't they charging free apps for downloads and approvals? Why doesn't the developer policy require Netflix to pay 30% of subscriptions for anyone who signs in on an Apple device? Why are the prices lower for "reader" apps who presumably cause Apple to incur similar costs?

Its like a toll road arguing "no, driving on the road is free of course, we just charge at the entrance and exit for the privilege of looking at the toll road".

What does it take for the legal system to be able to call BS on a claim like that?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#190

Post by danenania »

mr_toad wrote: post #181
danenania wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS and Android taken together are clearly a monopoly though. So call it a cartel or duopoly with price fixing if you like rather than a monopoly. It's exactly the kind of situation that antitrust laws were created to prevent.

> iOS and Android taken together are clearly a monopoly though. That’s impossible by definition, a literal contradiction in terms.

Thus the following sentence in my comment: "So call it a cartel or duopoly with price fixing if you like rather than a monopoly."
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