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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#161
People seem to be very poorly informed and are up in arms over the 27%.

This is directly part of the underlying court decisions.

While the courts haven’t explicitly stated a percentage, and the initial judge questioned the percentage, it was made clear by both the district court as well as the appeals court that Apple can still charge a commission even when payment takes place outside of Apple’s IAP system.

The courts consider it payment for Apple’s IP that’s directly tied to the sales, not IAP:

“In essence, Apple uses the DPLA to license its IP to developers in exchange for a $99 fee and an ongoing 30% commission on developers' iOS revenue.”

The district court even went as far as to outright state Apple’s entitlement to a commission, despite hemming and hawing about the exact rate (and ultimately not making a decision on it):

“Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission”

“Indeed, while the Court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for use of its intellectual property.”

“Apple is entitled to license its intellectual property for a fee, and to further guard against the uncompensated use of its intellectual property. The requirement of usage of IAP accomplishes this goal in the easiest and most direct manner, whereas Epic Games' only proposed alternative would severely undermine it. Indeed, to the extent Epic Games suggests that Apple receive nothing from in-app purchases made on its platform, such a remedy is inconsistent with prevailing intellectual property law.”

“Suffice it to say, IAP is not merely a payment processing system, as Epic Games suggests, but a comprehensive system to collect commission and manage in-app payments.”

The appellate court echoed these sentiments, if not outright making stronger statements about this, while at the same time complaining between the lines that the district court wanted its cake and eat it too by insisting that the anti-steering provisions are not kosher while simultaneously stating that it would be too cumbersome for Apple to retroactively audit sales to collect their commission.

Either way, the long and short of it is that Apple collecting a commission from developers using third party payment processors has the blessing of the courts.

Even when the district court in particular isn’t entirely happy with the rate of the commission while simultaneously not willing to make an official determination on the rate because Epic never fought the rate, rather the existence of the commission itself.

Now that SCOTUS has declined to look at it, this situation, including the blessing to collect a commission even when using third party payment processors, is the law of the land.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh absolutely it is. But all app store developers are complicit in enabling that monopoly. What should happen is that all app store developers withdraw their apps until Apple sees the light. But that won't happen because every app store developer will be pitted against their competition in a race to the bottom who will accept the highest fees that Apple is going to impose and sooner or later you'll be back at that 30…

How is this any different from brick&mortar big box retailers beating on their suppliers to lower their wholesale prices to the point they can only make a profit with large volume in sales? I guarantee you that 70% of your MSRP is way more than selling in a store.

It is no different, which is why suppliers to such stores routinely collaborate if they feel that they are being squeezed too much.

It is also why house brands are a thing.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#163

At this point, it's worth remembering that one of the points on which Epic lost was Apple's right to take a cut of transactions. I found this discussion of the Apple v. Epic ruling to be informative: > as discussed in the findings of facts, IAP is the method by which Apple collects its licensing fee from developers for the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a co…

But use of said IP is required because Apple forbids side-loading. Therefore Apple App store is a monopoly. So hopefully the court result will in the end help get the Apple App store shut down / opened up.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a lot more egregious that anything Microsoft did in the 90s. While MS tried to push their own products and lock out competitors, they never tried to take a massive cut of all the software on their OS. The level of sheer FU everyone chutzpah is pretty impressive. They're indeed making quite a joke out of antitrust at this point.

I'm not sure that's a direct comparison. Back then sure you could get shareware but mostly the market was paid boxed software. I can't find a direct source but I remember hearing brick-and-mortar retailers would take even more than 30% of sales. And Visual Studio sure wasn't free. Everything was different though, you'd be paying for your OS upgrades too which doesn't happen on iOS. I agree 30% is crazy, but the marke…

I used to sell shareware back in early 2000s and have never sold a box, only online. There used to be payment processors tailored just to this, who were charging way less than 30% for the privilege.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#165
post #39

There's a strong chance this will be shot down as "bad-faith" compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed] https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/174740814726057173...

It'll probably need to be another lawsuit since it's in the developer agreement. Via user lolinder ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39020745 ): > Apple is already pretty clear in its developer agreement [0] that the 30% commission is for "its services as Your agent and/or commissionaire" (Schedule 2 3.4), not for its services as a payment processor. They are contractually allowed to take the 30% fee out of paym…

To add, I'm not sure what legal basis there is for "you're charging too much". My only guess is filing against Apple and Google jointly for being a duopoly, but Epic has made it extremely hard to do something like this because of their existing jury trial against Google which gives a lot of concessions to third-party app stores in terms of functionality.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can I buy an Audible audiobook directly in the app on iOS (and for cheaper than listed on Amazon), but not a Kindle book?

You can't. You can use your credits from your subscription, but you cannot pay for a new audiobook in the app.

They changed this recently, and do allow direct in-app purchases now. In some random podcast interview with an exec at Amazon, I remember them saying that each team gets to make their own independent decision on this, and Audible as a unit decided to allow in-app purchases and pay Apple their cut.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#167
So I'm about to embark on a submission process for an iOS app that has a subscription currently, and I'm wondering if any app store pros can give advice, especially in light of this.

The app is a reddit-like site where you subscribe for an amount you choose (say $10/mo), the site takes a $1 cut, and the remaining $9 gets distributed between everything you upvote that month (creators get sent this money into their stripe connect account).

How much does Apple take as part of this? Do they take 27% of the $1/mo server fee, or 27% of the $10/mo total (thus taking away from money users would be sending from each other)?

It's a weird situation because it ends up being a subscription-based digital wallet, and I'm unsure how these are treated or what the right approach is when submitting the app.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#168

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

>So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not?

On desktop you have similar stores like Steam. The store takes a 30% cut from all sales on the platform and they require apps on the platform to use their payment processing so that they can take that cut.

The difference between Windows and iOS here is that third party stores can be installed without being limited to PWAs or requiring hacky workarounds like AltStore.

Why does Apple have the sole app store on the device? Well it's because it ensures they have a closed platform that they fully control. They made this app platform so it's up to them to decide how open it should be from a range of first party only to fully open to any app from the internet. It's up to Apple to decide what kind of openness will allow them to provide the most value to users. Apple designs their app platform from the hardware all the way up to the operating system and libraries for developers to use. Apple has created a great app platform that brings value to a lot of users.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that after 15 years of the App Store existing most developers know the score. And so by all means withdraw your app but the rest of us will simply continue to pay the 15/30% as we have always done.

Yes, this is exactly what enables Apple to do what they do and proves my suspicion: that there are enough developers that do not see this as a problem that things would likely remain as they are. Let's be happy that dockworkers had more spine than that.

There was side-loading on Symbian and Windows Mobile phones before iPhone and the App Store existed.

You know what the experience was in one word?

Shit.

For both developers and consumers.

Then comes Apple with amazing hardware, software and APIs with focus on developer experience.

Developers decide to ditch side-loading & stuff like xda-developers in favor of 30% fees to develop for iOS (and then Android) because it’s so amazing for them and the consumers.

It got to the stage where developers were so happy with the 30% fee and Apple/Google duopoly, many even didn’t even try to develop anything for other mobile OS’s including the Windows Phone store.

Microsoft tried to fund app developers and spent millions, without much luck.

No modern apps, no consumers, no sales.

Microsoft then had no other option than to admit defeat, write off billions and shut down the era of Windows on mobile phone devices.

Even Epic never released Unreal Engine on Windows Phone, and cries the loudest today about the duopoly they helped to build.

So now you’re saying after abandoning side-loading, agreeing to 30% fees for an access to a worldwide billion people marketplace, suddenly after 15 years it’s terrible and we should go back to side-loading again, because greedy Apple?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#170

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

Compare phones to game consoles.
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