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LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

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Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#181

Post by dmonitor »

kragen wrote: post #149
jacquesm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? It shouldn't be hogging bandwidth like this, that's a failure by itself regardless of whether there another failure state at play. Also, I'd have to question any washing machine that can generate 'massive amounts of error logs'. 3.7 G / Day is an insane amount of data.

a program running on a 480 megahertz microcontroller can quite reasonably crash a million times a second; even a single 80-character error log line would be 80 megabytes per second or 7 terabytes per day. and it would be reasonable to record more telemetry from a crash than a single line

yeah, usually try to provide some kind of delay if the MCU can detect that it rebooted from a crash / watchdog timeout

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#182

Post by kragen »

svnt wrote: post #179
kragen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a program running on a 480 megahertz microcontroller can quite reasonably crash a million times a second; even a single 80-character error log line would be 80 megabytes per second or 7 terabytes per day. and it would be reasonable to record more telemetry from a crash than a single line

A washing machine is probably running a 48 MHz, not a 480 MHz processor, but even if it were running its core at 480 MHz, its network interface is probably not going to be able to output TCP packets at 1 MHz.

we are faced with the assertion that the washing machine was sending 3.7 gigabytes per day of data

someone asserted that that is an unreasonable amount of data for a washing machine to generate

i'm pointing out an easy way for a washing machine might generate 2000 times more data than that

the fact that the network interface is possibly insufficient to send the data out is irrelevant to the question of whether the washing machine can or cannot generate it in the first place, which is what was being discussed

however, i will point out that if it's using tcp, unless it opens a new tcp connection for each telemetry message, the tcp stack will batch together many telemetry messages into a single tcp segment, probably about 1500 bytes worth

— ⁂ —

of course you can control a washing machine with an 8051, or an eprom and a register clocked from the power line (see jeff laughton's printing press controller at https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/One-bit%20computer/On...), or for that matter a mechanical timer or, as i've done, by unplugging the power cord and pulling a rubber drain plug when you think the agitator motor has been running for long enough. but more powerful control systems enable new functionality

historically it is true that manufacturers have used low-spec microcontrollers because more powerful ones were too expensive. today digi-key will sell you a 500-megahertz i.mx rt1010 cortex-m7 from philips/nxp, with 128 kilobytes and dc/dc conversion on-chip, for under four dollars, roughly π dollars in fact https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nxp-usa-inc/MIMXR.... home appliances and motor control are two of the application areas the datasheet claims it's 'specifically useful' for. unlike an 8051, you can program it in micropython and single-step it over a debugging umbilical, and once it's deployed, it can send you surveillance data over the internet. and you can get cheaper and better chips on lcsc if you can read datasheets in chinese

oops, did i say surveillance data

i meant telemetry. telemetry, telemetry, telemetry

for better or worse this unlocks a lot of temptation for manufacturers to put ridiculously powerful cpus in things where they only serve to cause headaches to the consumer

other comments in this thread have even pointed out non-evil ways this could make manufacturers more profitable

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#183

Post by kragen »

dmonitor wrote: post #181
kragen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a program running on a 480 megahertz microcontroller can quite reasonably crash a million times a second; even a single 80-character error log line would be 80 megabytes per second or 7 terabytes per day. and it would be reasonable to record more telemetry from a crash than a single line

yeah, usually try to provide some kind of delay if the MCU can detect that it rebooted from a crash / watchdog timeout

as well you should, and also on restarting failed tasks, but maybe somebody forgot

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#184

Post by kragen »

gravypod wrote: post #171
hsuduebc2 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really megabytes or it's just a typo? If so. How 80 characters could possibly generate so much data?

My napkin math: freq = 480 megahertz // 480000000 Hz size = 80 * 1 byte // 80 bytes cycles_per_write = 400 // 100 to print, 300 to fail writes_per_sec = freq / cycles_per_write // 120mHz duration = 24 hr (writes_per_sec * size * duration) to terabytes // 8.2 tb Seems somewhat plausible to hit >7TB of writes assuming no compression of the data.

i think that instead of 120 millihertz you mean 1.2 megahertz? and your calculation actually works out to 8.3 terabytes? otherwise i agree

btw the units(1) program is useful for things like this

    You have: 480 megahertz / 400 * 80 bytes * 1 day
    You want: terabytes
     * 8.2944
     / 0.12056327

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#185

Post by Johnie »

monospaced wrote: post #2

> In a follow-up post a day after his initial Tweet, Johnie noted “inaccuracy in the ASUS router tool.” Other LG smart washing machine users showed device data use from their apps. It turns out that these appliances more typically use less than 1MB per day.

Note: that was inaccurately reported in the TomsHardware article

The fact that it shows up as using iMessage is the part that I said may be inaccurately reported.

Even now, I am still seeing some suspicious data usage. I’ve started wiresharking it yesterday to track it down.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#187

Post by Gyrantula2 »

yakz wrote: post #46
monospaced wrote: post #2

> In a follow-up post a day after his initial Tweet, Johnie noted “inaccuracy in the ASUS router tool.” Other LG smart washing machine users showed device data use from their apps. It turns out that these appliances more typically use less than 1MB per day.

My Ubiquiti UniFi UDM is not good at device identification. It's kind of annoying because I have this big list of devices on the network and it's peppered with devices that I know don't exist. I'd appreciate it if it said something like "Maybe iPad Air", instead of just "iPad Pro 2nd Gen" when I know no such device is on my network.

Occasionally it's fun to discover new devices.

"It thinks my WiFi dog feeder is a Technoelectrocom 56XR-2000? What the hell is (was) that?"

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#188

Post by perryizgr8 »

HPsquared wrote: post #154
e28eta wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful about switching large inductive loads on a smart switch, the ones I’d looked at weren’t rated for big inductive loads (like the motor inside a washing machine or a dryer).

Inductive loads are less of a problem for alternating current. (Still a bit of an issue, though). I was thinking more, turn the switch off within a few seconds of starting the cycle. Usually nothing happens in that time other than the drain pump doing a quick cycle to remove any residual water.

This is exactly what I do with my dishwasher. I load the dishes at night, start the cycle and immediately switch off the smart switch while it is just trying to empty any residual water. The smart switch turns on every night at 3 am and the washer resumes with whatever settings I had chosen. By the time I'm awake the washing has just finished.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#189

Post by postmodest »

archi42 wrote: post #132
hamandcheese wrote: post #6

I'm not opposed to smart homes, I love being able to turn my lights on and off from across the room. But I don't know if I understand the use case for a networked washing machine.

Our washing machine and dryer are networked (Bosch). Current benefits are secondary reasons and I could live without them: - Notifications when done: Nice, but a beeper would work, too. - Select program via App, based on what I put into the machine: Occasionally useful when I'm not sure. Also, I can put in my wife's cloths and let her pick the correct program (I did that wrong once and we both don't want that to happ…

All of these use cases are a huge argument for "home hub" standards and aggregation and (user controlled) filtering.

None of which would happen because then "the product" would stop letting the exploitation happen.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#190

Post by nomel »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #26
nomel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get significantly cheaper electricity at night ($0.12 vs > $0.50/kwh, stupid California). Being able to schedule saves money, not that WiFi is necessarily required.

Did you check how much power your washer uses? Mine uses 0.4 kwh so you'd be saving 15.2 cents per load. Not really worth the hassle IMO.

You've neglected to include the energy used to heat the water.
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