Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

motherjones.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 375 posts

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#301

Post by silassliph »

droithomme wrote: post #247
option_greek wrote: post #225

It's interesting that these 'sexism' articles draw huge number of comments. Usually that would mean there are two strong sides arguing. But since they are almost always one sided, I don't see the reason for this much of 'attention'. Whats the point in arguing, when there is no one to argue with...

The same guys ranting in here about how feminist they are are also in other threads posting about how unprofessional people are who work 8 hrs and leave at 5 to go to their kid's soccer practice.

Yes, seeing how many times you can use the word "misogyny" in a sentence does seem to be the new performance art.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#302

Post by MartinCron »

paulhauggis wrote: post #297
MartinCron wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't worthless, but it's being presented in a jaw-droppingly insensitive way. Would you dare to say what you just said to an actual rape survivor? Are you that emotionally tone deaf or just misanthropic? Having a bunch of people ask you questions in a way you don't like, in a context where you're free to leave at any time, is not a form of violence . Maybe it's a form of aggression but not one that can cre…

My problem with your line of thinking is that as more and more people are silenced because of insensitivity, our freedoms are eroded away. What he says is insensitive, by why can't we just be adults and ignore it? After all, pretty much any article on HN involving legalizing MJ offends me, but I wouldn't go to my HR department if I heard people talking about it in the workplace. Or are you saying I should? When does…

I agree with Phillip Pullman when he says that "nobody has a right to never be offended." and that people should be free to say things that may be offensive, especially on their own time.

The simple fact that you've been offended isn't reason to go to HR. You go to HR if you're being harassed or if people are actively creating a hostile work environment. It correlates with being offended, but it's not exactly the same thing.

If people were harassing you about your MJ legalization stance (or anything, for that matter), then it probably would be appropriate to go to HR about.

When does it end? Right there. Easy.

As far as "silencing" goes, I'm assuming that the commenter above isn't trolling and honestly doesn't know that what he's saying is profoundly insensitive. In an intellectually honest community, people can have discussions around what would and wouldn't be considered insensitive, especially when that's the basic context of the discussion.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#303

Post by RandallBrown »

rmc wrote: post #195
RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

We are not ready for these sorts of jokes yet. Once a community overcomes its sexism and does start treating people equally then we can start joking about it. However at the moment these jokes give strength to sexists and discourage women. As such, we should not make these jokes yet. Or to rephrase it "Too Soon"

Sexism isn't the main reason that women aren't in computing. Sure, it's a reason, but it's not even close to the biggest one.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#304

Post by Alex3917 »

egillie wrote: post #294
Alex3917 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly there were many laws specifying that men were to be paid less than women and were to be subject to other degrading treatment. It's hard to find a good example of an actual law though because until recently virtually all states regulated education at the local level.

Do you remember the name of one of the books? I found some evidence of the opposite happening to attract men to the profession in OK, but I can easily believe that what you described happened in other states. And it's a pretty infuriating idea... To quote Steinem: “there are very few jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all the other jobs should be open to both sexes.

I found one cite from Gatto, which is probably where I heard it:

"Between 1840 and 1860, male schoolteachers were cleansed from the Massachusetts system and replaced by women. A variety of methods was used, including the novel one of paying women slightly more than men in order to bring shame into play in chasing men out of the business. Again, the move was part of a well-conceived strategy: "Experience teaches that these boys, many of whom never had a mother’s affection...need the softening and refining influence which woman alone can give, and we have, wherever practicable, substituted female officers and teachers for those of the other sex."

http://johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/6i.htm

Unfortunately he doesn't cite any of his sources because he wants you to look into the issues for yourselves. Every time I've fact checked him he's always been right or at least close enough, but the problem is with claims like this there aren't even really any hints as to where to look.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#305

Post by kelnos »

jmduke wrote: post #145
ghurlman wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

The same can be said of the opposite end of the geek cultural spectrum, though -- the stereotypical Mountain Dew & video games contingent. I interviewed a startup where one of the co-founders openly mocked me for wearing a tie; when he asked what my interests were (sports and music, amongst other things), I got criticized for not liking "Starcraft and normal programmer stuff." The issue isn't one specific subset of t…

it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively.

On the other hand, at least you found out up-front that this particular company probably wouldn't be a good fit for you.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#306

Post by cafard »

As an old balding guy working for an East Coast non-profit, I have to ask: how much of this goes on? Is there enough to be a problem, or is this just a meme that has caught a lot of people's attention, and will disappear once we lose interest and get excited in something else?

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#307

Post by droithomme »

MartinCron wrote: post #302
paulhauggis wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with your line of thinking is that as more and more people are silenced because of insensitivity, our freedoms are eroded away. What he says is insensitive, by why can't we just be adults and ignore it? After all, pretty much any article on HN involving legalizing MJ offends me, but I wouldn't go to my HR department if I heard people talking about it in the workplace. Or are you saying I should? When does…

I agree with Phillip Pullman when he says that "nobody has a right to never be offended." and that people should be free to say things that may be offensive, especially on their own time . The simple fact that you've been offended isn't reason to go to HR. You go to HR if you're being harassed or if people are actively creating a hostile work environment. It correlates with being offended, but it's not exactly the sa…

It's a fair hypothesis.

I know a few rape victims. I was able to get ahold of two of them and talk it out.

Their opinion was the described interview tactic does not sound like something they would want to go through and it is reasonable to speak against them. Both also mentioned that gang bangs are not equivalent to gang rapes, differing in consent.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#308

Post by capsule_toy »

ZephyrP wrote: post #204
fleitz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than just women. I've been programming for 10 years and I don't like the culture. It's not the brogrammer stuff either. It's more the incredibly negative attitudes and litany of social faux pas. Programming isn't the only job that pays well and rewards the highly intelligent. Women probably aren't going into software dev because they're socially acclimated enough to realize what a bad deal it is. Software s…

If holding power over others and perpetuating inequitable power balance in capitalistic structures is your ultimate goal, I certainly would never admit to it as you just did. As a programmer I mega-cringed when I read this and would certainly never work for you or any company you worked for if I read this. So please, be more dismissive. (Re: Downvotes - So I guess we should just treat programmers with derision and th…

Probably because people are reading the parent post completely differently than how you interpreted it. Nowhere did I think he was suggesting inequitable power balances. I'm pretty sure he just meant good social, sales, and marketing skills are more important than coding skills.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#309

Post by groby_b »

showerst wrote: post #60
stfu wrote: post #14

These "I'm shocked, outraged, sick to my stomach." postings make me always a bit uncomfortable. It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. The other, that these are just a bunch of nerds, trying (and in large parts failing) to make coding something "oool" or a…

Here's the thing - It doesn't matter. If you run {startup X}, and your business guy puts out a presentation with women in bikinis that makes one of your female employees uncomfortable, and you don't do something about it immediately, she has a potential sexual harassment claim that is going to cost {startup X} _years_ worth of funding in legal fees and damages. The "oh {business guy} is just a bit awkward and didn't…

I sincerely hope that this is not what people perceive to be the problem with it. (It's also wrong. Sexual harassment claims require repeated offenses that generate a climate of hostility. Yay, corporate sensitivity/harassment training ;)

The bigger issue is that - should you have a woman on your team - you just told her in not so many words that you perceive women more as a piece of visual stimulation than an actual person. That hurts.

The even bigger issue: You subtly say to all the attendees of your talk that you consider it OK to look at women that way. Enough people do that, you have created a climate of harassment - it just stretches over an entire industry.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#310

Post by capsule_toy »

fleitz wrote: post #173
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

It's more than just women. I've been programming for 10 years and I don't like the culture. It's not the brogrammer stuff either. It's more the incredibly negative attitudes and litany of social faux pas. Programming isn't the only job that pays well and rewards the highly intelligent. Women probably aren't going into software dev because they're socially acclimated enough to realize what a bad deal it is. Software s…

Build up your own rolodex and be on the list of names people turn to when they need programming work done. Most developers I've met don't really care that you know Rails but not Node. They care that you're a good programmer. It's really only HR departments and lazy companies that strictly adhere to "5 years experience in Node only!"

It also isn't one culture that permeates through all of programming. Go find a place with the right cultural fit for you.

Post reply on HN