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SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#301

Post by throwaway09223 »

gambiting wrote: post #299
throwaway09223 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Circulating a letter that levels accusations against the CEO for racism or other political wrongthink is not protected conduct. Come on, don't be ridiculous. The NLRB is operating a farce with this suit. They're used to companies negotiating and not fighting. Their position here is untenable.

>>Circulating a letter that levels accusations against the CEO for racism or other political wrongthink is not protected conduct. Maybe - I guess the courts will have to decide. But courts also regularly rule that complaining about you boss isn't a valid reason for dismissal - the only difference here is whether doing it on such a wide scale and in this way is or isn't acceptable. I wouldn't call it a farce at all -…

Well, there we differ. If employees can't be prevented from harassing other employees with open letters casting aspirations at each other then it would be impossible to operate a functioning company.

It is undoubtedly a farce.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#302

Post by arrosenberg »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #253
arrosenberg wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuremberg defense. She could have quit.

You've got to pick your battles, and let's face it, a well run and sensibly led SpaceX is a benefit to society (so far).

That's fine, but you don't get a pass. If you choose not to fight that battle, then you get to wear the outcome too - that's what was decided at Nuremberg as well.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#303

Post by tremon »

justrealist wrote: post #167
gitaarik wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But being fired the next day for a open letter that has some reasonable critique is something else. And there's also employer rights btw.

Circulating an open letter point-blank criticizing the CEO is absolutely unprofessional and I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

I thought said CEO was a hardcore free-speech apologist?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#304

Post by nebula8804 »

cannonpr wrote: post #8
bediger4000 wrote: post #3

[flagged]

So to give this a serious answer, why not ? Most but not all of the world has made this illegal because it’s generally viewed as harmful, to society, to the business and to the owner him self quite often. Companies are social enterprises and enjoy the rights with atleast in theory on the perimis that they benefit society in general as well as their stakeholders. Firing an individual who is performing their duties wel…

Most of the world isn't experiencing the GDP growth that the US has. Its unfortunate that this country is so bought and owned by the rich and until that dragon is slayed (how? who knows) then there will always be this sanctuary for the Musks of the world.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#305

Post by taylodl »

hipadev23 wrote: post #192
perihelions wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NLRB only collects tens of millions in fines, nationwide, per year [0]. Shotwell probably understood the illegality of her actions quite well—and more importantly understood that the benefits of chilling labor activism in a 30k-employee company far outweighed the miniscule costs. In support of this: Shotwell not only fired these employees, but made a loud spectacle out of it—emailing the entire company to announc…

What a goddamn joke. NLRB needs to be dissolved or given actual teeth to levy meaningful and impactful fines.

But for SpaceX this is even more foolish - the FAA can deny their launches. NASA is further empowered to find another launch service. SpaceX is very dependent on being in the good graces of government. Thumbing your nose at them, while a very Elon Musk thing to do, simply isn't wise.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#306

Post by paledot »

taylodl wrote: post #305
hipadev23 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a goddamn joke. NLRB needs to be dissolved or given actual teeth to levy meaningful and impactful fines.

But for SpaceX this is even more foolish - the FAA can deny their launches. NASA is further empowered to find another launch service. SpaceX is very dependent on being in the good graces of government. Thumbing your nose at them, while a very Elon Musk thing to do, simply isn't wise.

I don't think the FAA or NASA, as organization policy, care what the NLRB thinks. "Government" is not in fact a single monolith with emotions and grudges.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#307

Post by wharvle »

leereeves wrote: post #280
wharvle wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk... The whole (internal! Until leaked) open letter is near the bottom of that article. Wasn’t paywalled for me. Reading it cleared up the noise in this thread pretty neatly. Sure looks like this has a great shot of counting as protected discussion of work conditions. I now know posts in this thread dismissing the letter as just “politics” or just “criticizin…

Elon's tweets certainly aren't work conditions.

The letter lays out succinctly and plainly how they matter for workers and the company, and offers fairly measured steps that might be taken to mitigate that, which include simple stuff that doesn’t ask to muzzle Elon like just making it clearer that his tweets aren’t connected to and don’t reflect the positions of the company. The letter may be incorrect but sure reads like a good faith effort to discuss work conditions, not some kind of anti-Elon polemic. It’s not even close to the line that I fully expected to see it crossing, based on posts in this thread.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#308

Post by leereeves »

wharvle wrote: post #307
leereeves wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon's tweets certainly aren't work conditions.

The letter lays out succinctly and plainly how they matter for workers and the company, and offers fairly measured steps that might be taken to mitigate that, which include simple stuff that doesn’t ask to muzzle Elon like just making it clearer that his tweets aren’t connected to and don’t reflect the positions of the company. The letter may be incorrect but sure reads like a good faith effort to discuss work condit…

The letter goes beyond asking to make it clear that his tweets aren’t connected to and don’t reflect the positions of the company" and calls on SpaceX to "Publicly address and condemn Elon’s harmful Twitter behavior".

Merriam-Webster defines polemic as "an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another", so that demand is clearly an anti-Elon polemic.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#309

Post by disclosureacct »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #142
disclosureacct wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do Musk’s personal statements/opinions outside of work count as work-related issues? Are the communications from an account listed as their corporate disclosure account?

My guess: The most senior employees (C-suite and close to it) have special responsibilities and legally much great accountability. What a CEO of a public company says on public media (including Twitter/X) has far greater legal consequences for the company and the CEO than someone a few steps below. This is pretty normal for highly developed countries. Note: Responsibilities may change in different countries depending…

Corporations with shareholders must list specific accounts as disclosure accounts; because otherwise sharing insider business related information is unfair insider advantage.

When you list a social media account as a disclosure account for a business, it should then be clear that there's liability to all such communications through such account.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#310

Post by saagarjha »

junofan wrote: post #256
jwestbury wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just give the government reasonable power to enforce things. GDPR, as an example, has been very effective, because the fines which can be levied for violations are genuinely impactful to businesses. The maximum fine is 4% of global annual revenue. Alphabet, for instance, could theoretically be liable for up to $11b, or around 20% of their net income. Amazon could be liable for up to $20b -- almost double their ope…

GDPR is about giving control to people by disallowing data controllers from just passing the buck to 3rd party data processors. But you can already just not work for Elon if you think he’s an asshole. What’s the compelling state interest here?

If Elon can legally violate your rights because they’re not enshrined in labor law or not enforced, so can everyone else.
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