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SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#241
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note I specifically said I wasn't discussing share price. Regarding the Fed, that honestly is a misrepresentation of what I said. Please don't do that. And please review this part of my previous post: > ( not to say the share price is the mechanism by which that would happen , just that it stands to reason his tweets are relevant to the operations of the business if they're relevant to its valuation) Public st…

I'm not misrepresenting what you said, I'm refuting it. You established a chain of logic like so: If something affects the share price, then it is relevant to business operations Musk's tweets affect the share price Therefore Musk's tweets are relevant to business operations. I provided a counterexample (interest rates) of something that affects the share price but is not relevant to business operations. So the first…

> I'm not misrepresenting what you said, I'm refuting it.

I think you're distorting what I said, actually. What I said was that it is reasonable to believe that the tweets are disruptive, not that everything which impacts the stock price or even the operations of the business is relevant to working conditions.

I can understand how that may not have been clear on a first reading, but after I pointed this out and asked you to review what I said, I do think that should have been clear to you.

> I've read the letter, nowhere does the phrase "hostile work environment" appear.

I don't know if you maybe didn't see this edit because of how HN works, but I did clarify that already:

> (To be clear, they never say the words "hostile work environment," that is my interpretation.)

They are pretty clearly describing a work environment which is hostile. They're saying that they don't have clarity about what the policies are, that their work is interrupted, and that the lack of clarity causes rules to be enforced inconsistently. Call that whatever you want and it's still relevant to working conditions.

> It sounds much more like a small group of employees are demanding that management implement DEI policies

That's a complete misreading. Where did you even get that? The document has 3 calls to action and none of them are about DEI. They mention the workplace, as it exists, is diverse. That's all I can see and it's completely tangential. (By the way, the phrase "DEI" doesn't appear in the letter, either.)

> But they weren't fired for discussing it.

They literally were.

> "11. About June 16, 2022, Respondent, by Gwynne Shotwell, in an email to all employees announced that employees had been discharged for their involvement in the Open Letter."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38862605

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/CPT.3...

> At some point I think management is allowed to make a decision about whether they're going to implement a policy or not.

At no point does management get the ability to fire people for protected speech, or does the speech stop being protected. Just because management says "no" doesn't mean employees have to stop advocating for themselves.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#242
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NAL, but I think they would also have to prove that the thing they were fired in retaliation for is something you're actually not allowed to fire people for. You can fire people in retaliation for stealing or screwing up or for wasting everyone's time complaining about Twitter drama instead of doing their job or lots of other reasons. Simply firing in retaliation is not illegal.

Sorry this is getting ridiculous, go and read the letter, it's reasonably worded and specifically calls out the problems that you cause by making a policy for the employees ("don't be an a-hole") but then don't call out employees above some level for violating these rules. Moreover, a little research would have revealed to you that Shot well publicly stated that the employees were fired for their letter. There is no…

I'm not disputing that they were fired for the letter, I'm disputing that the letter is a protected discussion of workplace conditions.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>If the employee says something the company doesn't like, the company is free to dismiss the employee. Except they are not, even in the US with its meagre employee protections there are entire classes of protected activity that you cannot be fired for, and discussing your working conditions while at work(and being critical of them) is protected. >>This is pretty obviously a political prosecution Going after the peop…

> discussing your working conditions while at work(and being critical of them) is protected. Discussing working conditions is unrelated to criticizing the CEO. > Going after the people who break the law is political now? They didn't break the law. Wait and see.

Criticizing your boss is not related to talking about your working conditions? How can this possibly be true?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I could definitely bet there is no law in US which says that employee can spam other employees about how their boss is bad. That is exactly what this case is alleging is the law that was violated. What do you think this is all about?

Most cases like these are just to get money from the employers because they have publicity risk. There is no law they can point that is broken. The article even clearly says this: > The case is scheduled to go before an administrative judge in early March unless SpaceX agrees to a settlement beforehand. A spokeswoman for the labor board said it was seeking make-whole remedies like reinstatement and back pay for the w…

[deleted]

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>It is critical that the shareholders, the board, and the CEO make this determination about messages and mission, and values They did by creating the rules of conduct that all employees must abide by. "Rules for the but not for me" is bad corporate leadership. >not a mutiny by a subset of employees with an agenda (the same agenda as all the people here who think Musk is the devil) and who make unsupportable claims th…

[flagged]

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I guess primary sources are less cool if you aren’t going to read them and go in with a made-up mind. I was prepared to see a hysterical and inappropriate letter that at the very least didn’t fit the spirit of discussion of improving work conditions, even if it did fit the strict definition. Looks like it’s well within the spirit, though. Oh well, it’s there for all to read. No need to rely on me or “criminal crew ru…

[flagged]

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#247
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not misrepresenting what you said, I'm refuting it. You established a chain of logic like so: If something affects the share price, then it is relevant to business operations Musk's tweets affect the share price Therefore Musk's tweets are relevant to business operations. I provided a counterexample (interest rates) of something that affects the share price but is not relevant to business operations. So the first…

> I'm not misrepresenting what you said, I'm refuting it. I think you're distorting what I said, actually. What I said was that it is reasonable to believe that the tweets are disruptive, not that everything which impacts the stock price or even the operations of the business is relevant to working conditions. I can understand how that may not have been clear on a first reading, but after I pointed this out and asked…

> (By the way, the phrase "DEI" doesn't appear in the letter, either.)

From the letter:

> But for all our technical achievements, SpaceX fails to apply these principles to the promotion of diversity, equity, and inclusion [emphasis added] with equal priority across the company, resulting in a workplace culture that remains firmly rooted in the status quo.

> Individuals and groups of employees at SpaceX have spent significant effort beyond their technical scope to make the company a more inclusive space via conference recruiting, open forums, feedback to leadership, outreach, and more. However, we feel an unequal burden to carry this effort as the company has not applied appropriate urgency and resources to the problem in a manner consistent with our approach to critical path technical projects.

In other words, "nobody asked us to promote DEI throughout the company and it's not part of our job but we're mad that the company doesn't take it as seriously as they do building rockets (the purpose of the company)".

Not every single gripe about your company is protected discussion. I can propose my company implement unlimited PTO. They can say no. I can keep proposing it. I can write open letters demanding it. I can get the media to publish articles about how it's such a tragedy that my company doesn't take my unlimited PTO proposal as seriously as they do making widgets. They can get fed up that I won't shut up about it after they already considered it and said no and fire me. That's not illegal.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just open it up to private lawsuits with punitive damages attached. Lawyers will be on these kind of slam-dunk cases instantly.

100%. If you want behaviour changed with proper penalties, allow private enforcement of rights.

Or just give the government reasonable power to enforce things. GDPR, as an example, has been very effective, because the fines which can be levied for violations are genuinely impactful to businesses. The maximum fine is 4% of global annual revenue. Alphabet, for instance, could theoretically be liable for up to $11b, or around 20% of their net income. Amazon could be liable for up to $20b -- almost double their operating income (their 2022 net income was negative to begin with).

As a result, GDPR is pretty well followed. As an American living in Europe, I have to use a VPN to access many of my American financial institutions, because they don't think the GDPR risk is worth it and have chosen to simply block access from Europe.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is critical that the shareholders, the board, and the CEO make this determination about messages and mission, and values They did by creating the rules of conduct that all employees must abide by. "Rules for the but not for me" is bad corporate leadership. >not a mutiny by a subset of employees with an agenda (the same agenda as all the people here who think Musk is the devil) and who make unsupportable claims th…

[flagged]

> bad corporate leadership does not require govt oversight and intervention. And employees don't decide who is breaking the rules, just like crime victims don't actually run our courtrooms: it's not a good idea, noble as it sounds in a childish sort of way.

So who does? Not the government, not the employees, who decides the corporate leadership is acting in bad faith and needs to be accountable?

Stop the boring soapboxing, for Christ's sake...

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#250
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not misrepresenting what you said, I'm refuting it. I think you're distorting what I said, actually. What I said was that it is reasonable to believe that the tweets are disruptive, not that everything which impacts the stock price or even the operations of the business is relevant to working conditions. I can understand how that may not have been clear on a first reading, but after I pointed this out and asked…

> (By the way, the phrase "DEI" doesn't appear in the letter, either.) From the letter: > But for all our technical achievements, SpaceX fails to apply these principles to the promotion of diversity, equity, and inclusion [emphasis added] with equal priority across the company, resulting in a workplace culture that remains firmly rooted in the status quo. > Individuals and groups of employees at SpaceX have spent sig…

My mistake re DEI. I searched for "diversity," not sure why it didn't come up, guess I must've made a typo. The point that it wasn't what they were asking for stands.

> That's not illegal.

I think what you may be discovering is that you have more rights as an employee than you previously thought. Given that both of us have acknowledged we're not lawyers - we should assume the NLRB understands this better than us, right?

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