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SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#161

Post by woooooo »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #107
lettergram wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah should have said “not criticize what the owners of the company does outside of work” The open letter used work resources and hours to go after what their boss did outside of work. Worse, after being told to stop, they continued.

You're allowed to discuss working conditions at work, it's protected by law. You're advocating for criminal behavior by suggesting they should be fired in retaliation for a protected category of organizing. You might find more sympathy for your point of view if it were not enforced as criminally illegal behavior. Workers don't need to respect an illegal order just because it comes from their master - it's a free coun…

Musk's tweets aren't working conditions.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#162

Post by Grimburger »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #107
lettergram wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah should have said “not criticize what the owners of the company does outside of work” The open letter used work resources and hours to go after what their boss did outside of work. Worse, after being told to stop, they continued.

You're allowed to discuss working conditions at work, it's protected by law. You're advocating for criminal behavior by suggesting they should be fired in retaliation for a protected category of organizing. You might find more sympathy for your point of view if it were not enforced as criminally illegal behavior. Workers don't need to respect an illegal order just because it comes from their master - it's a free coun…

> discuss working conditions

Which part of the open letter discusses working conditions?[1] It's about how they don't want to work for a company owned by a person expressing their opinion in the public sphere because it causes embarrassment in their own social spheres being voluntarily associated with that.

The court case is now about them demanding to have their jobs reinstated to a company owned by that exact same person where absolutely nothing has changed.

I agree that workers should have freedom of speech, but the owner of the company they work for also has that same right, a right they oppose and which seems to be the root of all their problems leading to this case.

Freedom of speech was never freedom from consequences was it.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk...

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#163

Post by sokoloff »

cycomanic wrote: post #157
sokoloff wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? If I have serious on-going disagreements with my CEO's strategy and tactics to lead the company and I choose to take those disagreements public in a scorched earth style, I fully expect that I'd get sacked for it. And I think I should be (presumably with the typical severance for a other-than-cause termination). I'm standing here thinking "yup, that's about right" and other posters are thinking this is "so not…

Since when is an internal letter public? Also what happened to the whole "I'm a free speech advocate" spiel? I guess free speech only applies to thinks Musk likes. Seriously, under which definition is firing employees for their criticism considered good leadership?

There are productive and destructive ways to handle disagreements with the chain of leadership. If I choose a destructive way, I shouldn't be shocked that I find destruction at the end of that path.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#164

Post by imgabe »

gnopgnip wrote: post #97
imgabe wrote: post #36

8 out of 13,000 employees wanted to circulate a letter complaining about Musk's tweets and the Labor board claims they were "illegally" fired over this. Which law specifically requires employers to permit every employee to spam the company with their personal grievances? This isn't union organization or whistleblowing. They could use a little more detail on how and why they believe this firing is illegal.

A group of employees asking their employer not to joke about sexual harassment is protected concerted activity. That is why it was illegal retaliation to fire them

Kind of a bold statement when looking at the definition of "protected concerted activity" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity

It doesn't say anything about controlling your employers speech on their personal social media accounts.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#165

Post by YetAnotherNick »

Eisenstein wrote: post #156
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it is also against the law in this case specifically, so it is obviously not 'the norm'. Law IS the norm. And I could definitely bet there is no law in US which says that employee can spam other employees about how their boss is bad.

> And I could definitely bet there is no law in US which says that employee can spam other employees about how their boss is bad. That is exactly what this case is alleging is the law that was violated. What do you think this is all about?

Most cases like these are just to get money from the employers because they have publicity risk. There is no law they can point that is broken. The article even clearly says this:

> The case is scheduled to go before an administrative judge in early March unless SpaceX agrees to a settlement beforehand. A spokeswoman for the labor board said it was seeking make-whole remedies like reinstatement and back pay for the workers.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#166

Post by maxbond »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #131
sumeno wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His conception of free speech is that he should be able to say whatever he wants with no consequences. It doesn't go beyond that, he doesn't want other people to be able to say whatever they want with no consequences unless they're saying nice things about him.

I am sure Musk has lot but issues but he has repeatedly said and acted like he is fine with consequences of his speech. Like he is fine with advertisers leaving twitter/X[1] for his speech. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK91Ji6GCZ8

He's said so sure, but I don't think he's acted like it. He's frequently sued people or threatened to sue them for criticizing his speech (criticism being a consequence of speaking). He's recently embarked on just such a lawsuit against Media Matters, in connection with the affair you reference. He threatened to sue Vernon Unsworth for calling his rescue sub idea a publicity stunt, when asked directly about it in an interview.

You can think whatever you will about Media Matter's reporting and Unsworth's analysis, but I don't think that's accepting the consequences of his speech. To me that seems like trying to intimidate people who criticize you.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#167

Post by justrealist »

gitaarik wrote: post #133
roamerz wrote: post #48

If I was openly criticizing the boss my expectation would be I was putting my continued employment at risk. That ain’t rocket science.

But being fired the next day for a open letter that has some reasonable critique is something else. And there's also employer rights btw.

Circulating an open letter point-blank criticizing the CEO is absolutely unprofessional and I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#168

Post by TerrifiedMouse »

sokoloff wrote: post #134
geysersam wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the opposite of meritocracy. And abuse of power on your bosses part. Don't know why so many in this thread seems to support obviously corrupt behavior.

Is it? If I have serious on-going disagreements with my CEO's strategy and tactics to lead the company and I choose to take those disagreements public in a scorched earth style, I fully expect that I'd get sacked for it. And I think I should be (presumably with the typical severance for a other-than-cause termination). I'm standing here thinking "yup, that's about right" and other posters are thinking this is "so not…

I would hardly consider this as “take those disagreements public”. It’s not like they talked to the press. This letter was circulated internally using internal employee communications channels. Ironically, we would never have heard of it if they didn’t fire these employees in retaliation resulting in this lawsuit.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#169

Post by wahnfrieden »

sokoloff wrote: post #163
cycomanic wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is an internal letter public? Also what happened to the whole "I'm a free speech advocate" spiel? I guess free speech only applies to thinks Musk likes. Seriously, under which definition is firing employees for their criticism considered good leadership?

There are productive and destructive ways to handle disagreements with the chain of leadership. If I choose a destructive way, I shouldn't be shocked that I find destruction at the end of that path.

Even if it's illegal to retaliate in the case of protected speech, however destructive?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#170

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I was pretty dismayed that Gwynne Shotwell's actions were so blatantly egregious. I'd expect something like that (or probably worse) from Musk, but my view of Shotwell was that she was always "the adult in the room" at SpaceX. So a bit sad to see that she didn't even realize the illegality of her actions (as other comments mentioned, all her actions were clearly put in writing).
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